EW 084 – Body Language Secrets for Outstanding Executive Headshots – Winning with Jason O’Donnell, Owner of Infinite Eye Photography

Gordon Sheppard (00:01.25)
Jason, welcome to the show.

Jason O'Donnell (00:03.803)
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Gordon Sheppard (00:05.484)
Well, we are so lucky to have you because of your perspective in the world. There's your professional perspective with all the things that you've done in your business and the work that you do, but you've got some unique insights through your unique take on the visual world that we have. And we're gonna learn so much from you here today. But there's a lot of people that haven't met you just yet. So if you to describe who you are, what would you say?

Jason O'Donnell (00:31.141)
I'm a a portrait photographer that has photographed well over ten thousand people and that's not even a a stretch. it was weird when I actually calculated that out, but we we do a thing called volume photography, but I also do headshots. So I've had tens of thousands of people in in front of my lens and and working with so with that I I tend to see how people operate and I and I find it fascinating to to dive into that.

Gordon Sheppard (00:59.362)
Yeah, and I I remember w in our pre work conversation and getting a chance to meet you and learn that it's a very unique perspective that you developed. And so on on a given day, just describe your business a little bit, the name of your business and kind of what that bulk of what it is that does, and then what led to this unique perspective maybe that you have. Go ahead.

Jason O'Donnell (01:16.505)
The country name is Infinite Eye Photography. We've been around just under two decades. of course, bootlaced it from the ground up and and grew, you know, had the the dual career system going where I had the career making the money for for the for the passion. and then now I've been running full-time for just over ten years now, supporting her.

Gordon Sheppard (01:36.696)
Ten years and and there's like so on a given day from what I was learning from you, you've got hockey teams in front of you, you've got sort of business people in front of you, you're working around the world, depending on where it takes you, you attend conferences, you're again a craft driven in you're you're interested in your what makes you so interested in your craft of photography and this specifically in this portrait area?

Jason O'Donnell (01:42.043)
Yeah. Yes.

Jason O'Donnell (01:56.687)
It's fascinating to understand why people make the faces they make. talking with photographers, they know what a pose is supposed to be like. They know what it's supposed to do for you, but they don't know why it does what it does. And that's where I dive in, and that's where I think I have a a different view on is I I dive into exactly what each of those good poses are saying to people.

Gordon Sheppard (02:18.798)
Well, how lucky then to be in front of your camera? Cause then not only are you just saying, well, look up to the left or, you know, put your hand on your face or whatever it is, you've actually studied in a sense, I'm gonna say the science, the nuance of what's involved here today, which leads me to my first question, which is, you know, if you had to describe your biggest win and sort of this work that you've been doing, what would that win be and how would you describe it?

Jason O'Donnell (02:25.189)
Right.

Jason O'Donnell (02:40.433)
I think the biggest win is when I when I find people that are having trouble expressing who they're gonna be. Right? So they're having trouble really pushing it out and and they're nervous. there's a thing that I call camera cringe. When I lift my camera up, people do this. They they they don't look good. They say I'm not photogenic. And the the term photogenic doesn't exist. All that really is is people feeling uncomfortable in front of a lens or comfortable in front of the the person taking the photo.

So it's interesting because i some people will have a a a candid shot of someone at a wedding or just them around and about not knowing the camera was there and they go, I love that photo. Well that's that's being comfortable in front of wherever you are, right? So so that's when I when I can find someone

And find out what makes them relax, what makes them get into themselves, that's a huge win for me because now I've had the people have step forward and they they understand that it i it it's only photos. We say it all the time, it's just photos. So if you mess up in the photo or even the whole shoot, for some reason, it's not good.

It's okay, it's just photos. We can just, you know, delete and try again or or you know, that kind of thing. So that that's where I I find a big win is when I when I able to help people accomplish what they're afraid of to do. Because people like public speaking are terrified of headshots.

Gordon Sheppard (04:01.838)
Terrified of headshots. I've I've had headshots done. I've been in that very awkward moment where, you know, I'm not sure what to do with myself. And my goodness, are you looking at I've got all those inner thoughts, but you actually have then this sort of studied ability to get them into being at their best when they're saying I'm just going to focus on the headshot portion of what we're talking about here. And specifically, it's leaders. These are senior leaders that are listening to this show. Senior leaders need to have a good public image. And that big piece.

Jason O'Donnell (04:07.193)
Exactly.

Jason O'Donnell (04:20.657)
Sure. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (04:28.536)
You know, I ask for bios and headshots all the time on this show, and and we have to request those things. They need to look great as part of, you know, what they're putting out there in the world. And you're able to help them do that. Well, that's interesting. So we got the win, is when you find that right person and you're able to help them get that great result in terms of getting that portrait that's gonna serve them going forward. Great. Well, let's just jump into the anatomy of the win and then kind of talk about this, you know, from the strategy, work plan, people, operations, and results point of view. So strategically, when you think about

Jason O'Donnell (04:52.955)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (04:58.146)
Vision, mission, values, goals that you would have to get this win to occur? What is it about your own vision for doing this work that you're not just mailing it in?

Jason O'Donnell (05:09.093)
So the the main thing I I do is is is deal with body language. So right now you and I are talking. If I did this to you the whole time, I'm giving you a message, right? So I look at the people that are in front of me and finding out what the message they're giving. your headshot speaks even when you're not in the room. It speaks for you. And if you don't understand what it's saying for you, then you could be saying the the wrong thing. So the big thing is finding out

what what they want to portray. Typically people wanna show that they're trustworthy, they they show that they're they're they can be they can be trusted and and and do business business with. So that's why you gotta kinda have to get the person into that and it's funny, I use the line all the time, I need you to get into me.

And it it's funny because it's not a pickup line. It's just it's getting them in to lean into me and in and and right now if I did it, the camera's so close I would actually make my forehead look huge. But leaning in in front of my lenses, which don't make your forehead look huge, really help you show your empowerment, your your your compassion, your empathy for people. I have a client that that they they have are hiring multiple

People that that that help people through their emotions and then and so we have to show that they're trustworthy on that. So it's all about finding out what they're looking for, what they want to portray, and then using my understanding of body language to portray that. Right? When I shoot sports, I shoot powerful, strong, confident. When I shoot business, I shoot, you know, endearing, gentle. It depends what you wanna put forward in in your business.

Gordon Sheppard (06:42.456)
Wonderful. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (06:55.31)
That's so good. So you're trying to bring out the best in them strategically in a sense, which benefits them and it benefits you because you're gonna get referrals and repeat business from that in terms of how that goes. Also, there's something, why is it so satisfying for you to actually make this occur? Like again, you you could just bang these out, I'm sure, but what is it that you're makes makes you motivated to get the best out of people?

Jason O'Donnell (07:18.415)
It's interesting when I did a headshot session one time and I actually when I first started I set up in my my my home studio, my my home my house, my living room was my home studio back then. And I had someone coming through and they just were just amazed at the image that I showed them. Like like look, this is this is it. and so it

that makes me feel happy. There is there's a session I did many, many years ago. This one's really kind of solidified my my love for portraiture for of people.

So there was it was a anime conference. Anime is the cartoons or the the Japanese cartoons. And they dress up like that. And so it's it's really it's a little bit of a culture shock going in because everybody's dressed up and right. So this this couple is dressed up and and the her boyfriend wanted to get photos done. He's steampunk, so he's got the top hat on and the glasses, and he looks really good. He looks good. And I looked at his at his girlfriend and she was just stunning. She was gorgeous. She had these

you know, these stunning blue eyes, and I'm like, I I wanna photograph her. This is gonna be amazing. But she was too afraid. She's like, no, no, no, I I don't want and she's showing some you know, shyness. And then as I was photographing him, I said, Do you want to get her up? He goes, Yeah, I really do, I really want to get her up here. So she came up and I said, just stand next to your next your boyfriend. So she did, and she was a little shy, she looked down and I said, Just look at me. And she looked up at me. And if you want to see that image, go to my website.

infiniteeye.ca and that is the main web the main main image that I have on the on my site and that's been up there for years because that is really was a wow moment. I took the photo, I looked at it, I have goosebumps now even as talking about it.

Jason O'Donnell (08:59.011)
And she when I po pointed turned the camera towards her, she said, Really? And I said, Yes. She had no idea that she had that strength, that power, that and so what she was doing, I didn't understand it back then, I know now what she was doing, it was the chin down, eyes up, and focus down,

maneuver and it just made her look amazing. She lit up after that and she had a bunch of great smiling shots, but not as powerful as her her scared, okay, I'm gonna trust you look. And it was amazing. It it made me feel so alive inside. That fulfills me. That's why I do what I do. So I I connect with people and that makes me happy. That that that drives me to do more. So that's why I do I do the the extra step to go into it and and dive in further.

Gordon Sheppard (09:44.622)
Well, and thank you so much for giving me the goosebumps. Now it makes me want to go and see that image, right, in terms of what you're doing, and we can really hear again the vision of why. What is your why that's super, super clear, and then how neat to be in the photoc the photography realm that you actually make that occur. Well, that leads us to that second step then to say if well, anytime we have a sort of strategy or a vision in a sense, to get a win, we always need a work plan. And I'm actually just gonna instead of talking about maybe your whole business or your business arc, I mean to talk about maybe just a a portrait session.

Jason O'Donnell (09:59.867)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (10:12.832)
If I was, you know, booking you on that, how long does it take to sort of get booked in and how long does the session take? And I mean to work through that bit of a timeline there so that people can get a feel for a bit of your process along that work plan. So I'm gonna say, like I I get in touch with you and I know you can do this and I book the session. Would that be the starting point?

Jason O'Donnell (10:28.699)
I mean

Exactly. So you can book it through online. The session itself, it takes it really depends what you're wanting out of this. We can do this literally in two minutes. I'm able to identify people if they want to do bulk and just want to put through. I did a session where I spoke at a at a small business conference and then I spoke about headshots and body language and then right after those the fifty minutes on stage I went off stage and shot headshots. So everybody knew my spiel, my beginning spiel already, and it was the most exciting shoot.

That I've ever done because everybody came to me knowing what I needed, and they were excited. There was about 200 people there, only about 50 people came through. We got them done in a fairly short period of time, and it was really interesting. So, really, I can I can I can shrink it down or stretch it out. When I stretch it out, the the the essential session is about 20 minutes long. So you come in, you you set up, we're gonna capture a single look with a single background, right?

We're gonna we're gonna war work you through all the ways to get relaxed and and get to get into me to let it go and let it let it happen. And then that's that's the essential session. If you want an extended session, we double the time. And now we still do the essential session. We still walk you through the

understanding body language, understanding the the your angles of your body, your nose, your chin, your eyes, all that stuff. But then we start going into different outfits and different backgrounds. And now you just start that's when people really get into the sessions. I did one just just on Thursday.

Jason O'Donnell (12:06.041)
We're outdoors and we did the exact same thing. We had a little corner, we talked about how to do the posing, and then we started walking around and as the person she was nervous. Wasn't saying she was nervous, she was showing she was nervous to me. And as we got going, she started letting go. And at the very end she says, Here's an image of that I really like in myself. And it was an image of her just laughing. And she goes, I want that. So I know exactly what she wanted, because when people laugh,

They don't want that shot. The wrinkled face, the chin up, they don't want that. They want that cool down right after that. If someone laughs, don't put your camera down, keep shooting, because when they cool down or come down, you get amazing stuff. And we got it. And she sh she hasn't seen yet. But I think she's gonna enjoy them. I think she's gonna really like like them.

Gordon Sheppard (12:49.24)
Well, and how wonderful. And again, you've also, when I met you, it was like you could see right through me. You had a moment where you you made me aware of my own like I was we were at a networking event and you said, you're you're you're standing like this and you look like this, therefore you are this. And I was like, Who is what sort of magic voodoo did you just put into this conversation that you understood exactly? Can you recreate that moment for me? Because I mean to step into your study of body language, and why were you able to be so accurate in meeting me for the first three seconds?

Jason O'Donnell (13:08.675)
I I remember that.

Jason O'Donnell (13:12.976)
Yeah.

Jason O'Donnell (13:19.247)
Yeah, it's interesting because you are in a different position right now. You're interviewing, so you're sitting up straight, head straight forward and and you're doing that. When we first started talking, you're interested in what I have to say. So you t you c you put your head to the side and we're listening to me this way. That means I want to know more what you're saying. You're showing to me that you're interested in what I'm saying. Say more to me.

And that's what I had showed I said to you, right now you're very interested in what I'm saying because of this, this and this. And it your face lit up and I was I was laughing so hard about that, but it was really funny. 'Cause I you don't get that that raw of an emotion. But that was really good. So that's where that's people have the head tilt and they they listen.

It's also a a sign of friendship, right? So if you think if you're talking to kids, you're like, Hi, how are you? You it's kinda hard to show just the shoulders up. But you bend your body, you soften your angles when you talk to people that you like or or the the younger or the people that you know you want to help out. Whereas those those two guys in the bar that wanna face off each other, they get all square and right, they all puff up and y y you just watch. Like you watch people do their thing. It's it's just fascinating.

Gordon Sheppard (14:23.714)
And I can I can hear the science of, you know, again, body position and language and whatever coming through. And you just do this very rapidly because you've studied. So I can hear if I entered that twenty minute session, in the first few minutes, you're gonna give me all your bag of tricks in terms of whatever it is, head down, eyes up, eye head to the side, where then you're moving me rapidly through how to get that right piece where you're trying to pull the best of me out of me. Is that fair?

Jason O'Donnell (14:38.671)
Yes. Yep.

Jason O'Donnell (14:48.473)
Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly. The most extreme version of this is the the younger girls we photograph, they're so used to doing a camera in front of and doing the the head tilt.

They will not keep their head straight. We have to we have to get them back up here because they don't understand with their camera they're actually distorting their face because they're trying to get their camera away from them, but it's so close to them that it's defort this def distorting their face. And some of them think they have a nose. I'm like, no, it's the camera you're using. You don't have a big nose. Get your head up. There we go. And some will listen. Some don't want to do it. Listen, so it's it's interesting.

Gordon Sheppard (15:19.374)
But you but you're but you're but you're the magician. Like you you're the one that because you studied and because you have rapid language and you can put people at ease, imagine, you know, not having to spend whatever, send somebody to a psychologist to figure this out. Like you're actually getting this done in sort of minutes and then putting getting them to be at their best with then them walking away with what I found to be a powerful observation. Like I can take that observation away and go, wait a second. And it's funny, in the right hands and in in good use, I can say, I can know how to look interested, or I could

probably use it for bad purposes too and and use that body language awareness that you but you you brought the awareness to me and I can hear then again in that sort of work plan how those sessions run. The third step in the anatomy of wind is people. So if how did how would you describe your attitude through this journey to get to this wind? you know, in terms of has it been ups and downs, has it been sort of easy sailing? How would you describe your attitude?

Jason O'Donnell (15:50.299)
Yeah.

Jason O'Donnell (16:09.795)
It's been a bunch of aha moments, right? If if you're aware you're open to being told what to do sometimes, you can learn stuff. There was one lady, she's an author, she's a hypnotist, she's well renowned in her field, and she told me, I need a fan. It's gonna blow my hair, I'm gonna look amazing. And in the back of my head, I'm like, don't tell me what to do, I know what to do. And I didn't catch that. I didn't catch that I was getting my guard up.

She came in, I had a fan ready. I always have a fan ready. It's here all the time. And I put the fan on, and she just she worked it. She went to town, and I'm like, I need to stop being so I know everything. And others can show you stuff too. We we photograph psychologists, and I always ask them questions about the body language. What do you think this means? And do you understand this? And sometimes they're able to give me this whole new new look of how things happen.

One of the times that that that happened was I was in we're photographing we're we'd be in the photographers for the Empton Stingers, the C E B L Professional Basketball in Canada, and we're photographing them and it was my my first year of doing this, and I'm like, okay, I gotta get I gotta step up my game, this is gonna be huge. I get in there, I realize they're just big kids. They're just big kids. And it it was so good. And they always wanna do this chin up.

When I've got the chin down on them, I told them why, this is focus, this is this is, you know, ball tip-off time, get it ready. They understood that. And then every year after I photograph them, the people that have been there before, they'd walk up to me, they're dropping the chin to me. And not weird one like this, but they drop it down and we can play with it and up and down and make it different version. And so we get better photos because of that. when I can connect with people, it makes me happy. When I can

show them an extra little piece that they can take away and and and and have their own wows. It's amazing. It it it it's so it's so fulfilling that way. So I do it because it makes me happy.

Gordon Sheppard (18:18.05)
Well, and again, I think in short order, when I think about the busy leaders that are on this show and then the ones that are listening, working with you or getting this knowledge into their lives, this self awareness is a big piece of the puzzle. The how you know, it t if I can come to you and really quickly go, Wait, well, my body language, okay, I'm getting some reflection on that and then see the results. funny enough, my son is a golf instructor and I always say, you know, hey, I you know, my backswing was great. He goes, No, let's look at the video. And I'm like, I can't.

I can't deny it. So you've got you've got proof in the pudding, including that wonderful photo that you have inspirationally creating the goosebumps on your website that I hope a lot of people

Go and visit and find. There's also other people that would be involved in this win in terms of the growth of your business and that kind of thing. I know we're focusing on one part of it. And then also the people that are involved in your wins are actually the your subjects, these people that have come through your lives and had a major influence. You can you the ones, the stories that you're bringing up are memorable. They're forever stories. And I can hear that, you know, we could talk on and on about them as well. So we've heard strategy work plan, there's people, you know, we always have to

operations is the four steps. So we always have to operationalize this. And we've heard a little bit about your process. Somebody comes into our studio, we go through this. Are there any other sort of operational highlights that you like to point out along the way about I'm going to say the session itself or the way that you put people at ease or things that you're able to get in results later to operationalize and get them that great photo that brings out the best in them.

Jason O'Donnell (19:39.343)
Yeah, I want to make sure that I don't rush it. we can do, like I said, those rust sessions, but I'm not going as in in as as as in depth with those people, right? But when I do an in one-to-one session, the camera doesn't get picked up until you know, halfway through. I'm like, camera stays down. I actually say that. I'm like, camera stays here. We're gonna talk. Because I want them to know about the camera cringe. I want them to know about

you know, about trusting me on this and if it messes up, it's no big deal. It's no like it's not a big deal. Like so when they start milling that and relax, it they they become part of that process. So I don't rush it. I always plan for that. it's it's one of those things that that I don't know, like I it's grown out of out of my own tests, trials and tribulations. There's been times it didn't work. I'm like, that didn't work very well try this way.

I also had a session where I went for a headshot. It's one of the hardest things. If any of these headshot off people out there that want to take my photo, please contact me. It's the hardest thing for me to get a headshot. So I went for a headshot and I was. I wouldn't say I was treated poorly, but I wasn't I wasn't taken care of. So I went and after the session I was so angry because they took a bunch of pictures. I still hadn't relaxed, and they said, Which one you like the best? I'm like, what? Like we're done? Like

Because I'm used to my sessions and I knew it wasn't going to the same. But I was really upset about that session and and so I called my wife and I'm venting with her, just you know, da-da-da. And then I realized that's what I don't want to do with mine. I realized that that's it's a it's a learning opportunity for me not to do that for my situations, not to rush people through. Because a lot of the the photography industry wants you to get your photos done immediately. On the site, you pick it, you're done.

It's out of your hair. That's great for the photographer, but not great for the person doing it because they're feeling a lot of pressure. Sometimes they want to make it right away. We've had clients that say, Yes, I want to choose right now. What do you want to do? I w I want it right now and get it done. A lot of people don't want that. They want the experience of of looking through it. when I send the the the link to the gallery for people to look through, I also give them a a

Jason O'Donnell (21:54.843)
breakdown of how to look at the images because you get thirty to forty images, it can be overwhelming and like it's all the same. And they wait, if I break this down, look at these ones, these ones are different, but this one says this, this one says this. So then we break it down and and we we explain to them how to not be overwhelmed.

That's my job. My job is not overwhelmed. I take about a hundred shots, more in a session. If I just threw them all at you, you'd be overwhelmed. My job as a photographer is to edit, bring it down, walk you through the process. Even have clients saying, I'm I'm overwhelmed. Walk me through. Okay. So you walk through, we talk about each photo. I love doing that. The people don't take up take me up on that enough to walk through photos and have them discuss and say, This one says this to me, this one says this to me. did you notice this? hey, there's a flyaway hair that

I could fix that I didn't see before, type of thing, right? So that's part of the retouching and that's all part of it. So

Gordon Sheppard (22:47.604)
I love so take your time is what I'm hearing in this. Funny enough for me, this is part of the sneaky part for me getting you on here too, is there's a lot of transfer into leadership that we're talking about here. This is about taking care, doing right by your clients in a sense, not sort of say pushing your process, your ego into the situation, but actually getting again the best results for them. And I love that piece of the the cameras the not up in that first few minutes of what you're doing.

Jason O'Donnell (23:02.054)
Yeah.

Jason O'Donnell (23:06.319)
Yeah, to waste that.

Jason O'Donnell (23:12.07)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (23:13.068)
Because that really speaks to you having then dialed in this process where you're getting these great results, along with having studied, along with having put in the literally if we say 10,000 hours, the 10,000 plus whatever portraits that you've done that you mentioned along the way, that's pretty neat. So strategy, work plan, people, operations. Finally, there's results, quantitative and qualitative. You've photographed a lot of people. There's sort of, you know, if we say quantitatively, any other kind of quantitative highlights that you'd like to point out for this win?

Jason O'Donnell (23:41.401)
Gordon Sheppard (23:45.144)
And I'm not trying to get you stuck on that. It's you it's just sort of anything else and and then and then 'cause we can quickly jump in and just say qualitative counts too. So, you know, there's an aspect of like, how does this feel after all these portraits?

Jason O'Donnell (23:53.339)
Yeah.

Jason O'Donnell (23:56.913)
Yeah, people they they often say to me, I didn't expect this. I thought I was just getting my headshot taken. And and so we go further into it. We we do more. Some people are surprised that there's more than one photo. Like some people expect click, we're done. That's old school photography, click click next. which

We had tried that. We did do that. We tried that click-click next and it just didn't feel good. It just even in our sports photography, words volume, we've got to people through. We're doing seven or eight photos with an individual during the same time that another group will do click-click next. Right? So we kind of learned that we can't hurry people up, but you can be ready when they are.

So you can't tell people to to rush and get you know do this pose properly, but when they nail it, you're ready for it and you're hitting it, right? I it's funny, I I learn different skills throughout my photography from different genres. So my sports told me to be ready at all times. Because when you're shooting hockey, you got your camera up and the person, they're not a very good skater.

And they lean on their skates, they get on edge and they kind of come over, it's a great shot. Dad's has said to us, How did you get that? He can't even skate and you got the edge shot. I'm like, you just wait for it. It's there, but it's only for small moments. So you learn that in in your headshots with with clients, with with people who are wanting the the business headshot. Be there, wait, wait, be ready for them. Be ready for to go. Ready to go. Another thing that really changed my my photography is the tripod.

Used always hold the camera in front of my face and talk to them. And I put it on a tripod and I s I stood away, put my face out, and now I'm having way more interaction with them. I love it so much more 'cause I'm connecting and I'm seeing more. I'm understanding, I'm feeling what they're they're saying and doing more. So yeah, I kinda went off on a tangent, so about that, sorry.

Gordon Sheppard (25:50.678)
No, it's it's it's it's wonderful to hear because what we we've just gotten so many wonderful insights into your process. And I just sort of mean to say thank you so much for sharing this win, sharing your insights and your great stories, your absolutely memorable stories along the way. And I just towards the end here, you know, I'm thinking there's a CEO that's listening. There's a executive director, there's a senior leader, and you've worked with these people before. You know, if you had to sort of warm them up to say, you know, you're getting ready for your next portrait.

What are sort of the main tips that you want to give them that can encourage them to get the most out of their next portrait session?

Jason O'Donnell (26:25.457)
So head shots, are not my apologies. I've I've been working a lot of a lot of hours and a lot of talking with people. My voice is going, my apologies for that. But with with executives, the one thing I find they want to get it done and out. They want to be efficient, they don't want to take time, they just want click-click next. They they really do want that. But I highly suggest take a step back. Take a step back. Enjoy the session.

It's like a massage. If you just hurry up a massage, it's no good. You wasted time. But take some time to relax into it and and and and learn from this, right? I find that that when I bring in the higher level people and they just relax into it, I'm hoping they're getting a more understanding about what their face is doing during a meeting or talking to a you know a companion.

Their faces can say so much. And it's funny because when they get the pose, I always say to them, You felt that. I could see that you felt that. And if I'm seeing it, it's it's tangible. You you can get that in an image. You can get that relaxed that, okay, that felt right. Because your body knows, your body knows this. The one thing I also say to everybody is everything I'm about to tell you, you already know. Your body already knows this. I'm just gonna re-highlight what's going on so you can you can, you know, tune into that.

so if someone's coming in I would say take the time, relax, let it let it happen and and just see what we can produce out of that and and and and actually have some fun with it.

Gordon Sheppard (27:57.656)
Well, thank you so much for again the leaders that are listening to this are gonna get a ton out of understanding the process, a ton out of saying that portrait's gonna represent me, represent my organization in a sense, going forward. And it's worth investing the time to take the time to work with somebody like you who's got a process, an experienced process where you've worked out the nuances, you've had your ups and downs in terms of how it's going, and now you're getting to this moment of great results, plus you study it and you're in love with it as well. Jason.

Thank you so much for being on the show.

Jason O'Donnell (28:28.785)
Thank you good and appreciate your time.