EW 080 – How Leaders Can Boldly Learn From Failure To Grow Themselves And Their Business – Winning with Shawn Kanungo, Innovation Strategist and Keynote Speaker

Shawn Kanungo (00:00)
I think you learn so much more

when you fail and you overcome and you

are able to you know persevere at the end of the day.

and so to me, I try to really get romantic about the journey of trying new things and it not working out.

though those are the biggest wins for me.

gord (00:18)
Learn how leaders can boldly learn from failure to grow themselves and their business. Winning with Shawn Kanungo, innovation strategist and keynote speaker on today's episode of the Executive Wins Podcast.

gord (00:43)
Welcome to the award-winning Executive Wins Podcast. I'm your host, Gordon Sheppard. Today we are lucky to be joined by Shawn Kanungo, innovation strategist and keynote speaker, and someone who is boldly inspiring people around the world. You can learn about his work at ShawnKanungo.com. That's ShawnKanungo.com. On this episode, you'll learn why Shawn believes that taking big swings and learning from failure is

Is so important for personal and professional growth. You'll also gain fresh perspectives on strategy, building a strong community of family and friends, and why Shawn believes that you should actually try to get yourself fired every day by boldly taking shots to help your business win. In addition, Shawn talks about the importance of doing a pre-mortem to help anticipate what could go wrong before you start your next initiative.

Along with having the discipline to audit your calendar after a failure so you know where you misspent your time and effort. This episode is a masterclass for leaders who really want to learn how to follow their own North Star, stop caring about what other people think, and embrace failure as they build a truly fulfilling life.

gord (02:08)
I also want let you know that today's episode is brought to you by the Executive Team Assessment. The Executive Team Assessment helps you to discover exactly where your leadership team is winning, where it's losing momentum, and what to do next. It involves a three-step process. In step one, we interview individuals on your leadership team to find out what's going well and what needs work, along with examining relevant documents.

Including your strategic plan. In step two, we'll do an analysis of all of the information and deliver an easy to understand report, along with doing a detailed presentation to your entire executive team. Finally, in step three, we'll deliver a 90-day action plan, along with following up to keep everyone on your team accountable.

For executive teams who really want an objective and experienced outside facilitator to help you to improve performance and make your organization more profitable, the executive team assessment is a great choice. Visit executives.com forward slash executive team assessment to learn more, or send an email directly to me at Gord at executivewins.com. That's Gord at executive wins.com.

gord (03:28)
I also want to say thanks to you, because the Executive Wins podcast now has more than 58,000 views and over 640 hours of watch time on YouTube, along with more than 2,900 audio downloads on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen. And of course, I am so grateful that the show won the Best New Podcast Award in the Quill Podcasting Awards in its first year of production.

I also want to remind you that this interview follows a specific format that I created called The Anatomy of a Win to help you learn the strategy, work plan, people, operations, and results behind every business win that you hear on this show. Because when you master this framework, your business will become more profitable. And now here's Shawn Kanungo with his executive win.

gord (04:23)
Shawn, welcome to the show.

Shawn Kanungo (04:25)
Hey, thank you so much. I've been waiting my entire life to be on Executive Wins and we've made it. We made it here. So listen, this is a bucket list. I can I think I'm gonna retire after this. So this is exciting.

gord (04:34)
I

when executive wins can make you retire, I'll retire right beside you. It's just so good to have you here.

Shawn Kanungo (04:40)
Ha ha.

gord (04:40)
We're very lucky. I I've had so many I've had some moments to see you in person in action, catalyzing people as they move into innovation, AI, generative AI, the areas where you specialize. You're known for your keynote speaking. You're known for your global work, for those types of things. I mean, it's just so many different things. We could talk about your best selling work in in authorship and this kind of thing. But

You know, a lot of people haven't met you yet. So when you go to introduce yourself, what do you like to say?

Shawn Kanungo (05:07)
Yeah, I I like to say that my mission is to help people become bolder, to empower people to be bolder at the end of the day. And to me, that is because you know, I spent my entire career in this innovation space. You know, I spent twelve years at Deloitte really helping to lead innovation with their clients, and then over the last eight to ten years w been working hand in hand with organizations to adopt new technologies, new ways of doing things, and ultimately to create

a value for themselves and the people that they work with. So I'm just obsessed with this idea of innovation. And that could be through technology, whether it's leveraging the latest and greatest when it comes to AI, and that you know, that's certainly a rabbit hole that you know I've been helping organizations with. But innovation can come outside of just technology and it's just finding new ways to do things. So yeah, that's a little bit more about me. And and by the way, personally a little bit more about me. You know, I got three kids. I got a nine year old, a seven year old and three year old.

and my wife and I we are that is the that is that's where we need innovation, I think. That's if anybody can help out with us helping and and navigating these kids, that's where we need help. So

gord (06:17)
I love

hearing about those kids. Mine are twenty-five and twenty-three. I can't believe we're on this side

Shawn Kanungo (06:21)
there you go.

gord (06:22)
of of hockey rinks and lacrosse and all those things that we did. But such a gift at every stage, age and stage on that family side. For you, you you you chose the word bold. It's on your book. why bold? Tel help me out with that. What does that mean?

Shawn Kanungo (06:36)
Yeah, to me, this idea of being bold is this idea of stepping into an uncomfortable position, an uncomfortable environment, and really starting. And to me, I love the idea of bold because it it it just encapsulates what it means to move through the world i in a way that allows you to grow. And so to me, bold is about

Growth, it's about I think the the boldest people are the happiest people. I think the boldest people are the ones that are changing the trajectory of the world. And so that's why I love the idea of bold. It's it really encapsulates what innovation is all about.

gord (07:20)
And you're the ignition in making bold happen, right? On these

Shawn Kanungo (07:24)
Yeah.

gord (07:25)
big stages that you play on. You're in now with leadership teams. Again, I don't know the full resume, but it's around the world. You're getting asked by the b the biggest and the brightest. You're an

Shawn Kanungo (07:33)
Yeah.

gord (07:34)
economic weather vane indicator, instigator, right? And making these things occur. How's that feel?

Shawn Kanungo (07:43)
You know, I I you know, I'm incredibly humbled to, you know, have the opportunity to impact so many people. You know, the reason why I love this work is because I'm able to impact so many leaders and individuals and executives on this path of how do you become more innovative? And I pinch myself sometimes around the opportunities that are in front of me, you know, working with some of the biggest companies and some of the best leaders. but you know, I I think

It's it's it comes from a place of just helping and and being of service and you know the the this is the reason why I love my job, the more people that I can help, the you know, the the more joy that I get out of this work. So it's it's really been incredible.

gord (08:27)
And I've seen your service in action. I can talk about seeing you in a hallway at an event

Shawn Kanungo (08:31)
Ha ha ha.

gord (08:33)
and how present you are with everyone that you meet. It's really neat that y that authenticity comes through and then having had a chance to be in one of your workshop scenarios, that really I I just mean to be a witness to that and and co confirm that for the folks that are here. Anyway, we could talk on and on and on about the introduction. In the meantime, I love getting my first question in this interview, which is you if you had described your biggest win in all this work that you've done along the way, what would that win be and how would you describe it?

Shawn Kanungo (08:57)
Yeah.

Well, you know, I know we chatted about this a little bit before, but to me, to me, the biggest win is when I actually take a big swing and I and I and I fail, but I learned something around it. To me, I think w sometimes we get really obsessed around what the biggest wins are, but I don't want to get so romantic about the outcome. I wanna get romantic about the journey and the learning a along the way. And I have failed so much, you know, throughout my career, whether it's failed projects, you know, failed mobile apps

failed AI initiatives, failed y you know y you know, just failed projects that have not gone gone anywhere. And to me the reason why those are the biggest wins for me is because to me that's what I that's where I learn the most. It's when I step outside of my comfort zone. It's I I dive into this path of uncertainty and I learn not only about what I failed on, but I learn about myself at the end of the day. And

I think you learn so much more when you when you fail and you overcome and you

are able to you know persevere at the end of the day. and so to me, I try to really get romantic about the journey of trying new things and it not working out. And and and to me, though those are the biggest wins for me.

So it's a bit of a counterintuitive approach, but you know that's what I fundamentally believe in is just trying and taking shots. Because if we get too romantic about the biggest wins, sometimes we get caught.

gord (10:27)
Interesting. So I just need to ground this for a second and say you've taken big swings. What's a big swing and failure that you are allowed to share here that we can use as an example to kind of put some meat on the bones? Go ahead.

Shawn Kanungo (10:41)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean I I there's there's countless that I can I can you know you know put out there. I think you know over time I've I've developed so many different companies and startups and I'll tell you one that I learned a ton from which was in twenty eighteen. I created a new voice AI startup, which was called Silver and it was the bet

That voice AI technology was gonna be the future. The idea that we can just speak to an AI and be able to get not only responses but actions done for us. And so I built it based on the existing sort of Google and Amazon Alexa ecosystem. And I remember working on this project and we were working with clients hand in hand. We worked with the Bank of Canada, we were building out these solutions.

Ultimately the technology did not progress. I mean the the the ability the to train these different technologies, we literally had to train it by going through and scraping YouTube videos and the process was just arduous and it was so hard. And ultimately, you know, the team and I we were way too early in the space because the technology w wasn't really there. We didn't, you know, not to get too technical, but we had to wait till

the transformer technology, the technology that fuels the generative AI revolution really came about, which costs billions and billions of dollars to to ultimately create. Google sort of innovated that that that piece. you know, we failed. But you know, although we shut down the company you know, within I would say a year and a half, what I learned was this ability to to to the the the idea of timing.

You know, sometimes I'm a little bit too forward. You know, I I try to think, you know, that this is gonna be the future and but you know, the sometimes the market is not just not ready for it, or maybe the technology's not ready for it. So that was a big swing because at that point I'd left my firm at Deloitte. This was the big bet and ultimately it didn't work out. But I learned so much from that. And and the the the the saving grace from that is that I work with some incredible people. One of the one of the folks that I work with

this individual's name is Leon. And over time, because we went through that experience around AI, I've been tracking his companies, we've been I've been investing in some of these companies, and over the last year we've reconnected and and built an AI implementation company. And the only reason why we built this comp we built this company is because t in 2018 we had this failure. We went through the trials and tribulations of working with clients when it comes to AI.

And now we're coming back when the technology is here to really create impact. So you learn and and and and there's always incredible byproducts when you try things and and so it's been great.

gord (13:42)
I've had clients in workshops say a failure is a win. And I think that's where we're going thematically with what you're saying here. And

Shawn Kanungo (13:48)
Yeah.

gord (13:48)
I love it. So if we say, you know, your win is learning from failure or taking big swings and learning through that process and then romanticizing the process, which allows you then to get better results later on. The Michael there's Michael Jordan statistics in there somewhere about number of shots taken and you know, when we could get all into

Shawn Kanungo (14:04)
Yeah.

gord (14:05)
that kind of thing too. The

Great, we just let's just jump into what I call the anatomy of a win and kind of break this down because we kind of know what the win is now. And the anatomy of win is to explore the strategy, work plan, people, operations, and results behind the win. And if winning, if failing is winning, strategically, vision, mission, values, what's in there for you, goals, that, you know, makes you makes that kind of win occur?

Shawn Kanungo (14:30)
Yeah,

well well well let me let me push back on the idea that failure is winning winning. I think what the the what actually is winning is when you're learning. And you you learn most when you take a shot that you haven't taken before. And you learn when you when it doesn't work out, that's what you learn. Because there are failures that are just bad failures. There are failures where you don't learn anything and you just tried something and you didn't take something from it and didn't improve it, and that is actually a L.

and we should define that because you could just keep experimenting and failing and not learning and and improving yourself. So I I w I'd like to sort of you know, just mention that piece. you know y you know to your point, I think when it comes to vision, mission, you know, when you're when you're designing sort of a win, I think every organization, every individual needs a North Star. You need a guiding principle that will essentially

move your your your losses, your wins forward. All your initiatives should be a l aligned with that particular North Star. And I I I think sometimes we because the world moves quickly, because there's new things that are coming out, sometimes we lose the what what that North Star is all about. And I think that if every single initiative that you have is aligned with that particular North Star and where you want to go, the better that you're gonna go off and move

things forward, even if it's a loss at the end of the day. And so I I think grounding yourself in that North Star is incredibly important.

gord (16:06)
You must have a North Star.

Shawn Kanungo (16:09)
Yeah, I mean I mean to me at the end of the day my North Star is to and I you know I I introduced that concept at the beginning which is empowering people to be bolder. And you know, we really have a North Star in terms of helping organizations and h helping individuals, you know, really become bolder. And so around the individuals is really through content and you know, how do we inspire people to do more?

And then also from an organizational standpoint, how do we help organizations implement and create valuable returns and growth through what we're doing? So it's really about helping people at the end of the day. And that's why, for example, when we create content, whether it's on a stage, whether it's with a video, whether it's through a brand deal, a lot of that is just shots. We take shots, and some of those shots may not go anywhere, and some of them may be you know create incredible returns. So

you know, that really is the North Star and everything that we do should align with that North Star. Any new initiative should align. It's like is this actually helping people move forward? And that's that's our North Star at the end.

gord (17:20)
Well, and thanks for the clarification on failures, because you're bringing me back to some of the gym memberships that simply were a failure for me in the past and

Shawn Kanungo (17:26)
Ha ha.

gord (17:27)
that kind of thing. And so, but at your dead center there and completely aligned with what you're saying about the North Star. I think a lot of people, like you said, moving through these fast-paced times, don't keep that North Star clarified and they get bamboozled as they kind of get off target with what we call maybe shiny objects along the way. So we've got we we know what the w the win is and we know it's not failure for failure's sake, but failure for learning sake.

And we also understand strategically we need to have a North Star along the way. We always whenever we have a win, we need a work plan. And what I found interesting in your example was it was only 18 months. It wasn't 10 I've met entrepreneurs 10 years failing in what they're you know, in what they're doing. There's something about the eighteen month time frame that I'm I I don't mean to say that that's the only time frame. I'm I'm saying good on you for getting out. so work plans are important in terms of failing to learn.

And I don't know if you'd agree with that or not, or if you have any thoughts on the work plan aspect of how to get this win to occur.

Shawn Kanungo (18:23)
You know, it's y you you you mentioned such an interesting point which is around the the timing of things and you know, sometimes you sometimes you see the sometimes you see the you know, the writing on the wall around particular initiatives and the reality is is that sometimes you do quit too early. I I'm not sure. Maybe if we continue that Gord, like over the next ten years, maybe it would be would have become a huge success if we just persevered through that.

so sometimes you don't know and sometimes but I think the at the end of the day, it I I believe that strategy is energy. So strategy is an imaginary theory that has to set people on fire. strategy is not what you put on a PowerPoint, it's not what you put on a work plan. It is the ten thousand data points that show that you are committed. And ultimately, if you don't have energy towards what you are doing and you

are you have energy through the process, then I think you could you should still keep going. and at the end of the day, the winners are the ones that persevere the longest. And you know, in that particular example of that particular failure, I I just I didn't have the energy to continue to move that initiative forward. But in other realms of my life, like

There are things that I've persevered and I just because I love it and I have energy. And and one thing that you know that I have energy for is around you know, I really love content. I love creating content. And to me, I I I would argue that even up until this point, I don't know if things have really sort of popped off, but I just enjoy the process. And if somebody told me I'm gonna put out thousands of videos without anybody seeing it or liking it or commenting or sharing it.

maybe I would have maybe I would have quit, but to be honest with you, I don't really care. I just I love it and I I think I'm helping one person and I have energy towards it, so I'm gonna continue at it. So I think it is really based on this idea of of energy and the the team can feel it. Everyone can feel it. and so going back to this idea of a a a work plan, I think a work plan is great, but it should be infused in this idea of do you have energy

from a task-to-tast perspective to move this thing forward. And I think sometimes sometimes we miss that idea of is this, are we passionate? Are we, is everyone, you know, in line with this? Are we, are we, are we, it's like gut intuition. Are we feeling like this is moving our organization forward?

gord (21:07)
So well said. Thank you for strategy is energy. I facilitate

Shawn Kanungo (21:11)
Yes.

gord (21:12)
strategic planning. That's something that will seep now into my consciousness in terms of shaking up the traditional approach to those things. And I think 10,000 data points makes more sense than a vision statement. I'm I was dragged into a mission statement one time. We did the commas for two hours and I was just I'll never do that again. So I love

Shawn Kanungo (21:29)
Yeah.

gord (21:29)
your perspective that kind of pulls that together. It's funny, I in 19 I'm old enough in 1994 I had a high-eight digital camera. I bought it on my MasterCard at that time.

And I thought it'd be a good idea to go and record a look around for realtors. I went and used my buddy's house and I created a demo on a high-eight camera and I put it out on VHS tape. I was a bit early for that concept. But again,

Shawn Kanungo (21:49)
No I love it.

gord (21:50)
had I persevered for through my 15 years, I might not be doing this podcast right now. So that's interesting. The so strategy work plan, there's always people involved in a win. So what's interesting to me in in terms of you've got this fit if fail learning through failure, in a sense, is the theme.

Shawn Kanungo (22:05)
Yes.

gord (22:06)
what's it like internally? What's your internal voice? 'Cause early on, did failure feel great? And you're like, good, I'm just learning. Like what was what's been your inner voice progress through getting better at it? I guess would be maybe a way to say it.

Shawn Kanungo (22:20)
You know what? I I don't know if I got better at it. I don't know if I I get better at at at assessing how to not to avoid a failure. I think the I think what I've become good at is not worrying about just not worrying about what people think and I think that just comes through age. You know, when you're when you're younger you get you get really caught up with what the community or the the people around you, your parents,

what they're gonna say about failure. And for me it's really about creating that inner voice to be like, I'm gonna try this and it may not work out. And I don't care about how people are gonna think or perceive me at the end of the day because I've and you only get this through failing, is that really people really don't care if you fail. At the end of the day they care about who you are as an individual or who you are as a person. And my

kids and the my loved ones, first of all, they don't even know what I do. So for me to fail and to try something new, it it it doesn't impact them. And it there's an incredible freedom Gord when you when you realize that the things that you do are not that precious at the end of the day. And I actually you can find you can you can go both ways on that. You could be like well what what does it mean?

Or you can say, hey, this is incredibly inspiring me because I can try new ways of doing things. And I think the process has been really just creating this inner voice to say, I'm gonna take a shot, I'm not gonna worry about what people say, and I'm going to try it. You know, we we we we we started something last year where you know we we had this this new AI app that we created, which is a

A app that analyzes your group chat. It was kind of like a fun app. Analyzes your group chats and gives you sort of sentiment around what your group chat's all about, gives g gives people incredible like per like personality assessments, except etc. And ultimately we tested this with a whole bunch of friends and colleagues. but ultimately we we lost momentum around it, we lost energy around it, and we didn't put in the love that we probably needed in order to for it to be a success. But guess what? No one has asked me about it.

No one has no one has reached out to me about it. And it it's okay. Like it's you know it it's part of the process. And so I think it's just developing that inner voice that you can do it and you can try. And it's it's okay if you fail.

gord (25:01)
It's okay if you fail and you can try. That's coming through in spades. there's always other people involved in terms of getting a win. So do have you had mentors over the years to develop this? Is it other who else has been involved in helping you to to get this win?

Shawn Kanungo (25:16)
It's a great question. I think

There it it you know, it's interesting. I haven't I haven't had many mentors throughout my career and I think it's because number one, I I've always had an incredible support network and people around me. Like my wife has been my biggest mentor and support and champion and I think one of the greatest decisions that you could ever make in your life

is finding s a partner that is willing to dream with you, a partner that is willing for you to fail and experiment and to try new ways of doing things. And I would be nowhere without my wife who's been alongside me when I had nothing, when I made fifteen dollars an hour, sorry, five dollars an hour working at Athletes World. Five twenty five, that's when I was working at w and you know, she was with me when I started

then and she's still with me now. And I think having that support network around you and I've incredible friends, friends that I've had since I was junior high and high school, that's always been around me. And so to me, that's been important. And also it sounds dumb, but I really try to you know, really surround myself with great conversations. So whether it's through great books or podcasts or you know, I'm a I'm just a fervent just

reader and r and listener of incredible knowledge. And the beautiful era that we live right now is that you can plop in for an hour, an hour and a half and have a conversation like we're having right now and just extract the insights of some of the most incredible, intelligent, creative, ambitious people on the planet and learn from them. I mean, what a what a gift that we have in this era. So I really sort of love inspire getting that inspiration from

those different resources and that cer certainly fuels me, it gives me ideas and you know, it keeps keeps me going. So

gord (27:24)
described and it's fun because when I got to be in one of your workshops around perplexity was the you demonstrated your own AI avatar, which funny enough is

Shawn Kanungo (27:33)
Yes.

gord (27:33)
we're in that moment of like, well so is that a a mentor, an assistant? You know what I mean? Is it a person in your world? Is it that and so like I any sort of thoughts on 'cause you're at the cutting edge of making that thing work.

Shawn Kanungo (27:45)
Yeah, you know, it's a great question. you know, around AI and, you know, is it a mentor? I think one of the greatest use cases for AI is having a thought partner that's beside you that can you can bounce ideas off of and sort of what I call red team or or pull holes at what you're doing, which is great. ultimately it i it's a it's an incredible thought partner, but it's not a great

it's not really great at coming up with ideas or or coming up with truly sort of innovative or bold ideas because I think what AI ultimately does is it it distills all the data, you know, from the past and innovation is about really creating the future. And so I really use my AI as a thought partner, as an assistant of getting things done, and not so much as you know, helping me guide through

you know, a difficult you know, situation or a complex environment because it's just not really designed to do that. And so I think that is still under you know, AI can give you can give you this perceived confidence at the end of the day, but at the end of the day, you know, true I like true transformation comes when you are in this fire and you go through this unknown and you and you you you try something that no one has ever tried before.

gord (29:12)
it. So we've looked at the win, strategy, work plan, people operationally, we have to operationalize learning from a failure. Is there some steps that you go through? You're like, did it again, better get through my process. How would you operationalize learning from failure?

Shawn Kanungo (29:29)
It's

a great question. you know, normally what I do is I I try to reflect around and do a and I think I've become better at this, which is before I start an initiative, I do a a just a a premortem, right? A premortem is essentially going through this idea of if this went wrong, why did why would it have gone gone wrong? And when you start a a

project by doing that, you get you know, you you try to avoid those those failures when you when you go through it, which has become incredibly important. And I think afterwards it's it's really understanding obviously where you got you know, writing things down, reflecting on on where you got things wrong, but ultimately coming up with recommended steps of, you know, if you face the face this then the y you know next time, what would you do? And

I think by doing that, you can write it down, but ul also it becomes very intuitive, right? let me give you an example of this. Like we we started I remember when I started my first like mobile app company, I remember we became so romantic about you know, just like dumb things. Like what is the what is the app what is the app logo? What is the name? What is the website? You know, spending months and months just like iterating on this thing that

doesn't really matter. What really matters is do you have product market fit? Is somebody gonna use your product and re really enjoy it and love it? and that's the thing that you should obsess on. Not on this so, you know when we start things today, it's like I'm not gonna obsess over these, you know, these these things that don't matter at all. Which is we know we started this we started this new AI company called Moonstone and my partner's like, do you like the logo? Do you like the n I'm like, let's run to see if this is gonna work at the end of the day. I'm not gonna worry about these things. So

You learn things over time around what matters and what doesn't. And you you you learn where you spend your time and you don't. And so I think ultimately, you know, just coming up with recommended steps after seeing where y you you spent time i i is a great way of seeing how you failed and and I think all ultimately auditing your calendar. Like that's something I do all the time is like taking a look at what your calendar looks like.

you know, during that loss, I'm like, where did I spend time on that really did not move the needle forward? And you know, how do we how do I how do I solve that? And I I've become way better over time. and I think if you actually look at someone's calendar over time and seeing how that's evolved, you know, that is the mark of a of a true I would say, whether it's entrepreneur or somebody that's become successful, like the most successful people have nothing in their calendar.

The most successful people have like blocks of time where they're hanging out, they're thinking, they're and then and I've learned that over time because if you looked at my calendar today versus what you look sa you know versus three years ago or four years ago, it was full of stuff that I don't ha didn't have energy for, that I I I you know, that were useless meetings, and today it's way more streamless.

gord (32:47)
Review your calendar. That's powerful. Like in terms of just as a way to sort of again go back and unpack kind of what occurred. part of funny enough, I take the anatomy of the win and I flip it and I call it the anatomy of a loss to actually objectively help people facilitate through

Shawn Kanungo (33:00)
wow.

gord (33:01)
unpacking the loss. So we say, we're not trying to point fingers with it, but I've stood in front of groups of executives and said, Okay, tell me about your biggest loss. One guy said, yeah, I almost bankrupted the company. You know, they're on their way to whatever, half a billion. But the almost bankrupt of the company and this is what happened.

And suddenly he's standing with a facilitator in front of 29 people from around the world. And we're unpacking it and we're breaking it down and finding out this sort of min, you know, sort of detail around it. But I liked the other piece that I'd love to add in now from what you've said, which is the intuitive part of it. It's not to make it overly rocket science or MBA. It's just to say, no, there's a combination of these things, and then your calendar piece is invaluable in terms of that observation. That's really great. we know what the win is strategy, work plan, people, operations. Finally, there's results, quantitative results, qualitative results.

Quantitatively, you started something and stopped it if it was called silver back in the day. Do you know what I mean? You started

Shawn Kanungo (33:51)
Yes.

gord (33:52)
something so there's there's sort of quantitative things to to talk about in in this area. Any quantitative things that you like to point out? And I'm not trying to hold you to anything. I'm not looking for financials necessarily, but quantitative or qualitative highlights around

Shawn Kanungo (34:06)
To

be honest with you, I don't think it I don't think the in my personal opinion, I I don't think the quantitative is as important as the qualitative, which is again, it goes back to energy. Like, yeah, I mean, you could make millions of dollars doing something, but if it sucks the soul out of you, is it worth it at the end of the day? And I think, you know, that's such an important I I think element that I've learned over time, which is

To me a big win is when I I'm getting energy around it and it's helping people. Again, that aligns with my North Star. There are Gord, there there there are a thousand things that I know that could g give me an incredible amount of a a better quantitative number. Like I I if I wanted to make more money, if I wanted to get a bigger social media following, I know exactly what I would need to do to in order to do that. But the

The the the most important element is that does it align with your does it align with your North Star? Does it align with your own personal ethics at the end of the day? And so to me, that's why the qualitative is ten times more important than the quantitative in order of assessing a failure or a win at the end of the day. And you have to be you have to be able to sleep at night making sure that

you know, you're you're you're you're you're doing the right thing. And I think I I always like to l see my life as a as as and and my business as art. Like I wanna create things that I love, that I'm inspired by, that I'm passionate with. And sometimes that may not create the best quantitative results, right? It might not it it may not get me the best KPIs or the best

the the most money at the end of day. However, what I've realized over time is that if you do the right things for your people, for your organization, if you are lining to your North Star, for whatever reason, the byproduct is always that you will you will win financially. I don't know why, but by being an artist is actually the best way of in a long-term perspective,

ultimately being successful from a quantitative perspective. And I I think the organizations that are continuously seeing that are the ones that will win in the future. Right? If you if you treat your job not like a number, if you treat your job being in service to your customers, in service to your stakeholders, in service to your people, instead of being beholden to the quarterly numbers or the

or the yearly numbers, those organizations will last the longest because they have a long-term view of where the world is going, as opposed to this short-term, metrics-driven, performance-driven you know, mindset. And I know in a world that is very much performance driven, or if you're if you're publicly traded, you know, you have to behold you have to be beholden to your stakeholders at the end of the day. There's an incredible pressure to be

zeroed in on those metrics. But I think we should really have a long-term perspective and a long-term mindset of how we look at our business and that's it's really treating it like art and and and and yeah that's that's my perspective.

gord (37:46)
I love it. And thanks for building a life where you get to sleep like a baby. I mean, that is

Shawn Kanungo (37:50)
Yeah, I

gord (37:51)
right.

Shawn Kanungo (37:52)
I mean I don't know about you Gore but I I I don't think that there is anything that can make me happier right now. Like I sleep incredibly well at night and it's because I've I've continuously like learned over time around how to design a life that gives me energy and and actually what will keep me creating sleeping at night is when I fail more. When I fail more

it's that I'm pushing myself outside of my comfort zone and learning I'm challenging myself and I think that's why you know I wrote this book called The Bold Ones. It wasn't a book about happiness, but to me happiness is continuously growing as an individual. And if I'm continuously growing and I'm trying things, the better I'm gonna sleep at night.

gord (38:41)
Love it. Whenever we get great leaders like you on the show and thank you for being so eloquent through this whole thing, if you had a few sentences to leave for that next leader around some of the things that we've talked about. What are a few sentences that you like to leave for leaders to help them on their path forward?

Shawn Kanungo (38:57)
Yeah, I would say try to get yourself fired. Which is don't punch anybody in the face. But to me, it's it's around coming to work every single day and saying, what will change the trajectory of my organization or my business by taking a shot. Taking a shot is this idea of continuously trying to change what you're doing. And what you will realize is by taking a shot

You won't put your company at risk, you won't put your organization at risk, but you you will move your organization forward or and you will ultimately move yourself forward. So my my ask is to come into work every single day and ask yourself, how do I try to get myself fired today?

gord (39:45)
Shawn Canugo, we could talk on and on and on. Thank you so much for such an inspiring, you know, use of your time. I so appreciate that you took the time to be on the podcast.

Shawn Kanungo (39:55)
Well, I really appreciate you having me on. It was such an honor. By the way, if you've gone, you know, this far in this podcast, rate, review, subscribe, whatever you gotta do, because Gord is putting in the work. just an honor to be on this pod and and and you know, the other pods that you've released have been incredibly valuable. So yeah, just a pleasure to be on.

gord (40:16)
Follow your North Star. Take big swings and learn from failures so you can be successful. That is how Shawn Kanungo wins every day. Thank you, Shawn, for your inspiring win. And if you enjoyed listening to this episode, then make sure to check out our upcoming episodes, which include How to Be an Effective Mentor Who Builds the Next Generation of Leaders. Winning with Eric Dillon, president of General Bank.

And if you want to learn how executive wins services like coaching, training, and facilitation can help to align your leadership team so they can get more profitable results, then visit executives.com to learn how. You can also subscribe to the Executive Wins newsletter to stay up to date on the podcast, live events, education opportunities, and more. Visit executivewins.com forward slash newsletter to sign up. And if you enjoyed today's episode,

Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe, and share it with a fellow leader. And don't forget to check out our resources and links in the show notes. And keep listening to the Executive Wins podcast for more inspiring wins that will help you to grow yourself, your team, and your entire business.