EW 071 – How To Build A Successful Venture Capital Firm in Western Canada – Winning with Mark Benning, Founder of Excelsior

Gordon Sheppard (00:00.815)
Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark Benning (00:03.18)
Thanks, Gord. It's great to be here.

Gordon Sheppard (00:05.275)
Well, it's really lucky for us to have you here with the investor chops that you bring, the sort of studied pedigree that you bring, the lived experience, exit experience, and all that sort of MA and type of things that you have and the future that you're building in terms of investing in AI startups. I think we're gonna get touch some of those things along the way. I don't know if you're gonna throw in that professional hockey career or not, but we might need to find out some of those things too. But you know, Mark, there's a lot of people that haven't met you. So if you had to introduce yourself, what would you say?

Mark Benning (00:27.445)
Yeah.

Mark Benning (00:34.232)
Sure. thanks, Gord. So I'm Mark Benning. I was born and raised in Delwood in Northeast Edmonton. I'm currently the managing partner of Excelsior.vc. we invest in AI startups in Canada and the US. And my most recent investment was a company called Lila.ai in Boston. Previously I founded and led Sprout Fund and Sprout Fund 2 in Edmonton.

Investing in software startups across Western Canada. I'm still the general partner of Sprout Fund, which we'll talk about more later. but before that, I founded and led four venture back software startups in Silicon Valley, California over a 20 year period. And educationally I've got an MBA from Stanford, an economics degree from Harvard, and I also studied electrical engineering at the University of Notre Dame.

Gordon Sheppard (01:29.712)
Interesting.

Mark Benning (01:29.851)
And there is some hockey in that background, but we'll talk about that later maybe.

Gordon Sheppard (01:34.372)
Yeah, they're if fair enough. And so what's this I just have to ask listening to that sort of track record that you've thrown together? It's so fun when we get someone who's yeah, thanks for putting four or five decades together and and making it work. But the what's this interest in starting things and building things? There's I mean, that's a unique talent set that you've been able to do. It's one thing to do it once. It's one thing and to do it twice, but then to do it multiple times or be in the position where your dollars invested would be well invested. You know what I mean? You would make good

Selections based on that track record that you build up. What is this interest in in building and and sort of helping to invest in things?

Mark Benning (02:10.366)
Yeah, that's a that's a great question. I think if I could point back to my like my history almost, my father, my grandfather, they were both farmers and grew up on farms. And there's something in the sort of Western tradition of like farming is basically a startup. You're every season creating, you know, new crops, trying to harvest them, trying to make some money off them.

And it's repeated time after time. and you know, I grew up a city boy, but I think that background and being in Edmonton also is a Alberta's a very entrepreneurial community. So that it had a a lot of influence on me. And then, you know, after I got out of Stanford business school, I my goal was to be an entrepreneur, to start a company. the first one went pretty well.

You know, and that led to the second one, which we started during the dot-com boom, raised about fifty million dollars for it, ended up, you know, suffering through the dot-com bust and shut the company down at the end. And that, you know, almost you could call it failure, led to the desire to try another one and you know, and then another one. And

What sort of brought me out of the startup phase is I started angel investing in other companies and I love that activity now where I can help entrepreneurs build their companies into bigger ones and be successful.

Gordon Sheppard (03:51.806)
Isn't that interesting? So, you know, really that farmer background, it's funny. I remember I got lucky I they put a city kid on the farm back in after grade twelve. I got to go do that nine weeks. I got to work on a farm with a wonderful man who became a mentor of mine, Roy Pennington, and got to see him go through his trials and tribulations of when to get those combines out to work and do those things. But that's exactly what he was doing every year was reinventing, you know, which crops to plant and what it was. So you got that honest earned history in the family, and then you came out and you knew it was entrepreneur right away.

Mark Benning (04:06.178)
cool.

Gordon Sheppard (04:21.117)
Cause Stanford, a lot of options when you're coming out of that type of, you know, that sort of history. But you knew entrepreneur right away. And then you got into some scenarios where you got went through your peaks and valleys, pretty earned licks along the way to go through those big moments and, you know, have a down period. But then something in you wanted to sort of spark up again. Boy, we could talk on and on, I'm sure, about each one of these things along the way. But I got to jump into the interview here and say, you know, if you had to pick one of your biggest wins along this journey, what would that win be and and how would you describe it?

Mark Benning (04:48.556)
Yeah, I think the biggest win of my career was founding and leading Sprout Fund back in 2018, back here in Edmonton. you know, at the time I had just moved back to Edmonton from California, where I had been for probably about twenty-five years, and I noticed a this dire need for startup capital in the local entrepreneurial ecosystem.

So I started talking to a local entrepreneur and business leader named Lindsay Dodd at an Edmonton Angel Investor meeting. we started talking about the idea to form a small venture firm based in Edmonton, and that eventually led to Sprout Fund and us raising a million dollars for us to invest in about ten companies across Western Canada.

Gordon Sheppard (05:42.341)
Interesting. And then you're bringing together your experience. So that million dollars would have gone a long way in terms of impact. Is that fair?

Mark Benning (05:48.684)
Yeah, absolutely. We invested anywhere between about seventy five thousand and a hundred thousand in ten different companies. And, you know, my experience both, you know, investing as well as starting companies and running them really helped give us both some credibility among potential investors as well as among startups who were looking to raise funding.

Gordon Sheppard (06:13.927)
What a nice bridge to build in there and what an interesting place to set up shop. Cause if you already had the the taste of the Silicon Valley ride, I mean that's its own drug, I think, for people that have gone in the ups and downs in that world. But here you are in Edmonton, really like you said, that undercapitalized area where, you know, we have breakout entrepreneurs in this region. They kinda they're gonna break out no matter where they were in the world, some of those big success stories. But you're in there able to help

maybe some of those other folks along the way as well, including raising the money. Cause again, we're not talking, you know, we're talking about this, you know, that what it takes to raise a million dollars, what it takes to get a cohort of investors together and you were able to kind of pull that off. Well, that's really interesting. So it makes me do you want to jump into what I call the anatomy of a win. So starting the Sprout Fund was the win and essentially you got all these sort of stakeholders involved. How what would you how would you describe the you know if we say say anatomy of the win is the strategy, work plan, people, operations and results strategically

We always have to have a vision, a mission, some values, goals. Any highlights about the goals or maybe values or what you wanted to do vision wise by getting this fund set up?

Mark Benning (07:17.018)
Yeah. So, you know, I'd say our strategy was to raise a million dollars. It it you know, in the investor world, that's a pretty small fund. but it was something we felt was manageable to start with. And we reached out to well the goal was to reach out to individual investors and use the money we raise to invest in, you know, promising companies.

you know, mainly software startups in Western Canada. So we were mainly focused, I'd say, on Edmonton, Calgary, Kelowna, and then the Vancouver Victoria area. and you know the goal was to find these promising companies that could grow into much bigger companies and could generate these outstanding returns for our investors.

Gordon Sheppard (08:11.997)
Yeah, it sounds so glamorous, right? We'll just raise a million dollars. It's easy sailing, right? This scouting for, you know, if we talk about the hockey analogy, like finding those companies, what's it like to try and get out there and k it's not like you've got a a ten million dollar marketing budget. Do you know what I mean? To be a big magnet out there and put up a huge billboard. That's a really lean kind of approach to investing that you're describing. And then how did you go about you know, finding those 10 that you mentioned?

Mark Benning (08:14.914)
Yeah.

Mark Benning (08:36.418)
Yeah, my that was my main focus at the fund was finding these promising startups that we could invest in. And, you know, I think of the ten companies we did invest in, I sourced eight of the ten you know, that we made investments in. And and really it was by tapping my network of entrepreneurs that I knew, other early stage investors who could be co investing in these companies with us.

As well as key service providers. I have some very close lawyers, accountants, consultants that, you know, referred companies to us. And it's also the the situation where once you raise money and announce that you have a fund, we also got a lot of inbound interest in from companies that wanted to get an investment. So that combination of things really led to us finding these great companies.

Gordon Sheppard (09:35.047)
So you set the table. You're here in Edmonton, you wanna do it here, you wanna do something there's something about Canada, Western Canada, something in there like again, 'cause you could set this sort of thing up anywhere. What sorry, just in what's the regional aspect of this? Is it you wanted to do this in Edmonton for a reason?

Mark Benning (09:49.814)
Yeah. you know, I had you know, just being an Edmontonian born and raised and growing up here, it was something that when I came back to Edmonton about I think eight years ago now, I just saw the need for it and really wanted to focus on helping local companies, you know, become, you know, able to go after a worldwide market. Today with the internet, with

you know, communications as it is and the availability of capital, I think you can start a company from anywhere. and so it doesn't have to be Silicon Valley anymore, you know, and Edmonton and, you know, Calgary have such great entrepreneurial flares. And, you know, a lot of it was in the oil and gas industry, but I think more of it is moving now to technology and other areas like that.

Gordon Sheppard (10:48.103)
Wonderful. So again, you've got this regional aspect to sort of the strategy and the vision. You've got the vision to sort of raise a lean fund, in a sense, test out this premise. You've got the ability to leverage your network. You've got the ability to gather these people together, whether they're investors or again some of the support people that you had along the way to get this thing up and moving. So we've got a good sense of the strategy. There's always a work plan. So you know, if we have a strategy, we've got to get this thing in action. So there was an idea moment, there's a moment, there's an idea. Hey, I think I'm gonna start a fund.

And what sort of month and year did was that an idea and then how long did it take for that sprout fund to get up and running and and be proactive?

Mark Benning (11:21.462)
I think the first conversation I had with Lindsay about it was sometime in fall of 2018. and you know, it took a few months of noodling back and forth, discussing the idea and the concept. but then we decided we were gonna do it. And you know, our work plan involved four key steps. the first really was to set up the fund both legally and financially.

So we ended up investing about $100,000 to get it started and running, pay for the legal fees to establish all the agreements we needed, and get it off the ground and you know get bank accounts and the sort of typical business thing any company needs to start. then the challenge was to pitch potential investors in the local area, both Edmonton and Calgary, to raise the money for the fund.

and that took many months. we had a number of people who were wonderful helping us. They hosted dinners for us, they hosted meetings for us with their friends and other investors. And, you know, it took probably nine months or so to raise that money for the fund. And then once the money was raised, the third step of the work plan was to find these promising startups to invest in.

And you know, be able to do the due diligence, evaluate the companies, meet the entrepreneurs, determine whether we thought their product had the right fit in the marketplace and the right market opportunity. And you know, once we invested in them, the fourth stage of that plan was to help them grow and achieve these outstanding returns for our investors.

Gordon Sheppard (13:15.515)
Interesting. So you had a plan, you knew how to do it. You'd have the experience from the past. You knew what it was gonna take. And this is then over just a couple of years. You're kinda up and running and getting these things in in play. And we've got a good feel for again strategically, why we got this going here, what we're doing. There's a is if I say there's an investor premise or a portfolio t approach, is there was there an idea of like you knew who you'd say yes to and who you'd say no to?

Mark Benning (13:38.062)
Yeah, we really were focused on an area of software called SaaS, Software as a Service. So these were typically companies that were B2B. They were s selling to other businesses. they had a good software product that made a lot of sense in the marketplace, and they had a potential to grow pretty substantially, pretty quickly without involving a lot of additional add-on cash.

investment in the business.

Gordon Sheppard (14:08.797)
Interesting. And then you'd be really good at people. You th you like you've just described if I had to map out the people part on that timeline, you've met in that time period, it's over a couple hundred at least, where you're, you know, between all those investors that you're meeting, all those moments are going in. You're you must be the type of fo person who's really enjoys going to dinner, hanging out at a coffee and sort of, you know, doing that kind of thing along the way. So we've got strategy, work plan. There's people involved is the third step in the anatomy of a win. Who are they? You know, if you had describe yourself and your attitude.

Mark Benning (14:20.13)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (14:38.695)
through that timeline. You know, what what was it? Easy sailing, ups and downs. How would you describe your own attitude through that one?

Mark Benning (14:44.714)
yeah, I'm I'm naturally an optimist. So I tend to see the glass half full rather than half empty. And you know, so every meeting for me, as you described, was was enjoyable. It was even when we got a no, we got enough information about why they said no or you know, why they weren't investing in us that that you know we could use that to help.

you know, the in the next meeting and the next discussion with somebody else. So, you know, I think that helped a lot through that first couple years when we were getting things off the ground and running. and then in talking to entrepreneurs, I love like hearing about their vision for the future and, you know, helping them in any way I can by introducing them to others or things like that. So you know, my perspective tends to see the

silver lining and things rather than the the you know you know the risks and potential failures involved in it. So that really helped along the way.

Gordon Sheppard (15:51.454)
How lucky to have an optimist in those conversations. Those are dicey moments. These are not fully established companies where it's all, you know, that, you know, where they're moving through their latter stages of being successful. They're in that middling, you know what I mean? Just middling. They're ready for you. You're ready for them. So that's it's a bit precarious along the way. So there's other people involved as well in in having a win like this. So if you had to sort of name or at least let us know kind of who the what the roles were of the other people and their attitudes, how would you describe the investor group?

For example, would you describe some of the other stakes, who are some of key people that made this win occur?

Mark Benning (16:26.38)
Yeah, so I would I would say the first would be Lindsay. he had both extensive startup experience and very strong leadership experience. he's great at governance, and so he was someone that both helped in the setup and structure of the fund itself, as well as he had a great network in, you know, especially in Edmonton.

of business executives, potential investors and things like that that really really helped get this off the ground. so he was one of the the the key people involved in that process.

Gordon Sheppard (17:06.331)
Interesting. And you would and you would have run into all kinds of investors if we had to make a laundry list. You what I mean? I don't mean to sort of dig them all up, but there's a f bunch of other people that are involved there. And then there's some of the entrepreneurs in your early days that would have been key players in there. Any sort of any memorable ones along the way that helped this make this win occur? Were there the right investor right entrepreneur, right time for going together with what you were trying to do?

Mark Benning (17:28.002)
Yeah, one I'd like to mention is Tim Rejnir. He founded a company called Smart Access based in Edmonton. And he had this great relationship with Home Depot, and they had a contract with Home Depot, and it was one of these where, you know, as a group.

We were debating whether this was sort of a a one-shot deal. Like they had this one contract, but could they actually expand to other companies and extend their software to you know many different companies? And we had a lot of debates about that. But Tim's vision of what he wanted to do was so like overpowering and and you know outstanding that you know we we made the bet on him.

he ended up moving himself and his family to San Francisco in part to sort of experience what life in Silicon Valley was like, but kept the company in Edmonton and you know all the engineering work was done up here. And he just raised a a financing round at about, I want to say about 10x from where we first invested.

And has been very successful with the company and building it over the years.

Gordon Sheppard (18:52.071)
How exciting to be part of that journey. And thank you for a little bit of the insights into some of those conversations that you're having. 'Cause this is not cookie cutter work that you're doing. There's instinct meets numbers, meets projections, meets we're not quite sure. Like it's quite a soup mix that you're dealing with.

Mark Benning (19:08.406)
Yeah, absolutely. It was a big risk investing in him because at that time he only had this one contract. But I actually, as part of due diligence, flew to Atlanta with him to meet the Home Depot people that he was working with. And I had this great sense that they loved him. They loved the product he had. And they were so enthusiastic about it, I thought.

You know, surely he could take this to other companies as well, which is what he's done.

Gordon Sheppard (19:41.574)
Interesting. And so you got to be a part of that journey. And then again, we're seeing what does it take as an investor? You don't just sort of stay on the phone or you know wait for those emails to come in. You actually sort of boots on the ground, you go and get a full feel. So when we talk about doing your due diligence, that's the level that you need to take it to. Well, that's interesting. So strategy, work plan, people. There's lots of people involved. And again, we could go, I'm sure, on and on and on about the other companies and the other people that are involved. there's

You have to operationalize something y anytime we get a win, right? There's that thing you got it up and running and then we've heard a little bit about along the way. Any operational highlights that you like to point out along the way that made this a a win for everybody?

Mark Benning (20:19.17)
I think part of it was tapping into some previous experience I had. So while I was in Silicon Valley, in between my software startup companies, I usually take six months to a year off and often would work for a venture capital firm for that time period, in part to learn what was going on in the marketplace, but also just to learn.

kind of from an entrepreneur's perspective, the other side of the table, what did they think about and how did they think and evaluate things and run reports and stuff like that? So that was really useful over the years. So I was able to bring a lot of that into you know, Sprout Fund and be able to, you know, share that with my partners and be able to, you know, implement some of those things in our fund.

Gordon Sheppard (21:10.287)
Interesting. And so we've got you know, you mentioned Mr. Dodds, the the idea of this leadership experience, his own background experience, his strong network. You've got your own Silicon Valley experience. You've got this V C exposure as well. So you're sort of covering off all aspects along the way. I have to ask about it's funny about V C approach or just to ask, is there

A multiplier that's sort of common? I mean, I don't mean to say dragon stand to to limit this conversation, but what's sort of sort of the when you're gonna operationalize this and you're asking for investors to come in and join your fund in a sense, what are the expectation levels that you can set that are both, I'm gonna say monetary, satisfaction, almost Canadian in a sense? Like what's what's sort of how how do you set expectations for people that get together with you?

Mark Benning (21:53.859)
Yeah, that's a really important question because that that's what a lot of the investors asked us. You know, what were we expecting to produce with a fund like this? And I think at the time we were talking about, you know, sort of shooting for returns of about three to four X on their initial investment. And that would be over a course of, you know, 10 years or so from

the outset of the fund to its completion. and, you know, our our results so far have been, you know, quite outstanding. We're actually currently at about 4x right now from that first million dollars we we raised. And you know some companies are doing exceptional. We've had a couple that that ended up shutting down then didn't work out. But that's sort of par for the course for a

venture capital firm. And you know, those I think results could get even better over the next three to four years here, you know, as those some of those companies realize exits either get acquired or maybe IPO and you know and can produce those results.

Gordon Sheppard (23:12.859)
Interesting, because we hear a bit of the t bit of their timeline expectation in there too. It's not this is not a one year three, four X kind of turnaround. This is a, you know, we're gonna go hang out for ten years. So you also gotta wanna hang out for ten years. I I mean I'm I'm sure there must be and there could be some quiet investors that just wanna see the returns. But there's there's something about the nature of bringing this group together that would be important, I would think.

Mark Benning (23:23.064)
Yeah.

Mark Benning (23:34.223)
Yeah, it it was you know, part of our pitch was to support the investing community in Edmonton and and the area. and so it was it was not a large investment from any one investor, but combined we ended up having about 50 investors all together you know, to to produce the million-dollar fund. And, you know, and they wanted to see a return on it. And I think

So far we've been able to deliver that and potentially even exceed their expectations with it.

Gordon Sheppard (24:09.957)
Interesting. And it speaks to future work and unlimited runway for folks like you, right? Where this like this isn't your last rodeo with the because you can always spark these things up and see how things are going. But it sounds like your enthusiasm is as high as it's ever been for this kind of thing when you're describing it as well. Strategy, work plan, people, operations. Finally, there's results. So quantitative results and qualitative results. Quantitatively, you've mentioned that the fund is, you know, getting into that three, four X zone at this kind of moment.

You've got some f some I'm gonna say if I say winners or com companies within the portfolio that are succeeding, some that are have not, which is a natural thing. Any other quantitative highlights that you'd like to point out for this type of win?

Mark Benning (24:47.999)
I think those are the big ones. The the other thing I I want to just emphasize is being able to help these entrepreneurs along the way. that pays dividends in many different ways. And you know, especially as an investor, excuse me, having that reputation of of you know being a helpful investor and adding value to the company.

really can help you continue making investments into the future and and getting references from some of those entrepreneurs we invested in, you know, to do future investments or have them refer a friend who's starting a company. We've had a number of situations where that's happened as well.

Gordon Sheppard (25:35.272)
So it's a two-way street, like right the like it's not just you giving them a hand up. They're actually down the road helping you folks to build as well. It's funny, you mentioned that a lot of the folks came in, I say, of the 50-ish or so people that invested in the fund, that the regional part was part of their premise to get involved. How would you describe Edmonton's current state then? I mean that's 2018 and you get things sparked up with your million and you've got your experiment going on.

Mark Benning (25:52.835)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (25:59.634)
What's your then observation of the current state in the Edmonton region for what it needs? Does it need 20 of these funds? Does it need more activity? is this sort of enough? Like what's the where did what's that sort of next step in that vision from the regional perspective?

Mark Benning (26:14.285)
Yeah, I think I think the the the regional economy could use even more investment opportunity than there is today. there's definitely been a lot of growth that has occurred over the last like seven, eight years. A couple funds I'll mention is Accelerate Fund that Arden say runs. they've they're now on, I think their fourth fund.

Of you know, start he started in fund two, then ran fund three, and just raised for fund four. so that's great to see. There's another fund called Weave VC. Mark Mitchell leads that, and he's they're just looking at potentially raising a second fund, bigger fund from where their first fund started at. So I think those opportunities are.

very positive for the Edmonton region and and even across Western Canada. You know, Toronto has a lot of investment money and and venture capitalists as well as Montreal, but there's more of a lack in the West here. And so getting more of that money coming in and investors taking the chance on things like technology investments as opposed to just say oil and gas.

I think is really helpful for the economy in general here.

Gordon Sheppard (27:40.35)
Well, thanks for being a bright light. I I can't agree more. When we hear about diversification or what does it take, but you're talking about how to get it done. And you've you know, you're putting in the time to get it done to create that diversification. And then again, that these tech investments that you said now are borderless. We're in a we're in a time where you don't need to be here. And yet I've seen people on panels, kind of panels that I've seen you be on, for example, say, gosh, how do we keep our young people invested in the region? Is is a huge is is is that part of what you're thinking about as well?

Mark Benning (27:55.043)
Yeah.

Mark Benning (28:07.489)
Yeah, absolutely. you know, one company I'll mention is Jobber, who is, you know, grown phenomenally over the last, you know, eight years I've been in Edmonton. And they've got a lot of people in Edmonton that they're able to stay here and work here and still work for an exciting no longer startup company, but an exciting technology company. so I think getting

more of those type of companies built in this area and, you know, continuing to stay here is just gonna be overall positive for the whole economy.

Gordon Sheppard (28:44.519)
Thanks so much for for mentioning that. Cause again, you can hear that it's more than the raise that you did. And if you folks are if I say pioneers, but you know what I mean? Like I don't how many funds there were before you got there, but you know, it would have been one of those important funds to help, like you said, and now there and it's not that there aren't others, but this sort of joining of the multiple funds and what it can do for so many different reasons and then you can see where you're on. Well, a lot of leaders listen to this show and it's interesting to me to have sort of a VC leader here. So if you had to describe kind of what it takes

To be a VC leader, what are some of the main things that you would mention to someone say who's working, you know, it's someone working for a VC and they're they want to get better at it, or you know, it's someone but V C leadership would be very distinct. So any comments on VC leadership itself?

Mark Benning (29:30.169)
Sure. I think one of the biggest things is just that experience matters when it comes to investing and and and also helping startups grow and succeed. For me, if I hadn't started those four software companies in Silicon Valley some 30 years ago, two of which ended up failing, and you know, two I'd consider successful, I wouldn't be nearly as good as an investor as I am today.

And that experience having started a company or even working at an early stage startup, I think is invaluable to becoming an investor because you see what it takes to build a company, to raise money for a company, to grow a company. And those are such important pieces of the startup life and and of investing.

that having gone through that experience yourself really gives you a lot of both empathy and recognition, sort of pattern recognition of what makes a a good startup and potentially very successful one. so that'd be one of the key lessons I'd say.

Gordon Sheppard (30:38.567)
Empathy

Yeah, empathy and recognition. Isn't that lucky? The pattern recognition. that's another one that that could be a title of a book that I think we would sort of help you and your fellow investors put together because there would just be so many strong anecdotal and, you know, pieces in there that are, you know, put together that soup mix to make

Good soup in terms of what you guys are talking about. That's really, really good. Any closing thoughts that you have for again the region or VCs or other people in in this area as you sort of think about this sprout fund wind and then maybe what you want to see in the future?

Mark Benning (31:12.589)
Yeah, I think this is such a great area to be able to be an investor and be an entrepreneur that I just want to see more of it happen over the years. And, you know, I think you know, Mark Carney is doing some things to help the entrepreneurial ecosystem across Canada. And I think that's really smart and important that the government

You know, doesn't get too involved but provides some of the resources needed to get some of these programs going and investments made in companies and and building this entrepreneurial ecosystem within not just Western Canada but across Canada.

Gordon Sheppard (31:58.312)
That's a great sentiment to get here at the end of the interview. And it's interesting about there's north south where we've had our economy, we've had our upsets in the last little while as the global thing changes and we think east west, but in top in fact, what you're involved with is not even necessarily it's borderless for where you're making your primary investments and making things occur. Well, we could talk on and on, but Mark, I wanna say thank you so much for being on the show.

Mark Benning (32:21.468)
thank you, Gordon. I appreciate it. It was a a a great interview. I really enjoyed it. Thanks again.

Gordon Sheppard (32:30.791)
Easy peasy. Thanks for being so well prepared. That was good.