EW 057 – How Two Brothers Can Run a Successful Family Business – Winning with Kevin and Jeffrey Lapes, Owners of Pemco Construction

Gordon Sheppard (00:01.255)
Kevin and Jeff, welcome to the show.

Kevin Lapes (00:04.579)
Thank you so much, Gordon.

Gordon Sheppard (00:07.655)
Well, how lucky for us to have you here, because I get to sit in an audience last year and watch you folks win a business award, which I just love that there was family around. You could see what you folks have done in your generational legacy-driven business that we're going to learn a little bit more about here today. So it was such a pleasure, honestly, to be in the audience and see how meaningful it was.

for you folks and what was happening there. And then again, you've been part of this multi-decade, you know, next generational experience that you have. Next gen is not always an easy thing. So there's something secret sauce that you folks are doing if that's going well. And we're learn about that here today. There's a lot of folks though that haven't met you both. I'm gonna start with Kevin. Kevin, if you had to introduce yourself, what would you say?

Kevin Lapes (00:56.847)
Thanks Gordon. My name is Kevin Lepes, one of the two owners and brothers of Pemko Construction Limited, second generation ownership. I kind of did the business side of the schooling and went to McEwen University. Just like Jeff, we got put through the wringer on site and if we wanted to join the company, we went, you know, right to the sites, worked under the guys, worked under the team, labour, clean up, housekeeping.

anything required so have slowly over the 20 years that I've been here touched every aspect of the company and to where we are today.

Gordon Sheppard (01:37.758)
Well, that's interesting. You reminded me of one time, a long time ago, I worked in the film business and I was working in a shop where they built really cool things like wall-sized lifesavers in a day when they had to build things and it wasn't all CGI. And one time I was sweeping out the shop there and I was picking up this really heavy stuff and they were like, Gord, put that down, that's lead. And I was like, I was like.

Jeffrey Lapes (01:50.754)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (02:01.775)
I don't know. So you know what I mean? Like when I think about some of those early site stories that we would have from you folks, you know what mean? As you kind of grow up in any sort of construction setting, you'd have some of those things along the way. Anyway, Jeff, please introduce yourself as well.

Jeffrey Lapes (02:13.656)
Yeah, so my name's Jeff Lopez, just one of the other owners, younger brother to Kevin. Been with the company now probably 18 years. Again, like Kevin, kind of right from the bottom, labor and then supervision and carpentry. I took, well graduated from Nate from construction engineering technology. So kind of went more on the construction side of things. And yeah, I've been.

It's been a quick 18 years, time flies by and think Kevin and I now own the company for the last 10 years since 2015.

Gordon Sheppard (02:50.011)
Interesting. And this apprenticeship that you've both described has something to do with, is it your father that owned the company? Is that correct? Or yeah. And so I can hear him almost from when you could learn to talk. I can hear this approach. Do you know what I mean? That he, you weren't going to, you weren't just going to step into the C-suite office and take this thing over. What was the nature of your dad? Like how did he get it started? And why did he have this approach for you folks in leadership learning that you had to do it from the ground up the way you did it? What would you say, Kevin?

Kevin Lapes (02:55.171)
That's right, yep.

Jeffrey Lapes (02:56.27)
It's very similar.

Jeffrey Lapes (03:02.572)
Yeah.

Kevin Lapes (03:07.329)
That's exactly right.

Kevin Lapes (03:18.041)
So he was doing really well. So he was with a local construction company in the 80s, came to Canada in 1982 with mum and kind of started establishing themselves in Canada and left the former Czechoslovakia at that time. And he had a construction background in Czechoslovakia building dams and some pretty big projects, was a carpenter. So had that knowledge decided, hey,

I'll go to Nate. So he went to Nate here in Edmonton, got some education, was working with the local construction company, met Milan who actually hired him at said construction company. So they worked together. Joseph proved and showed how well he was doing, how good he could do at his job and how, you know, he cared so much about what he did. And so then they basically after...

about eight years, nine years decided, hey, let's start our own. So Milan and Joseph together in 1990 started Pemko and I guess the rest is history as you say, but.

Gordon Sheppard (04:28.659)
Well, and the rest is history. Like it's one thing to start a company. It's another thing to have a company 35 years later with second generation. There's something that he's done well. And I'm going to say this apprenticeship process that you've described is part of the, you know, is one of those components. Jeff, what's it like in early days around the supper table when you're like, Hey, I think I might want to get involved, but it's going to be a lot of hard work. What was it from your perspective?

Jeffrey Lapes (04:29.026)
Yeah.

Kevin Lapes (04:39.213)
Yes.

Jeffrey Lapes (04:49.582)
Yeah, he never pressured us into it, never really talked about it. He just kinda told us, know, if you ever want to join the company, then you're gonna start from the bottom. You gotta learn the business, you better go to school, whatever schooling it would be. He was the one that told me about the Nate...

construction engineering technology program so he told me to look into that because that was still around when he was going to NAIT. We always kind of saw he was working long hours, late, very hard. He treated the company like it was his baby, right? Coming from Europe with really nothing and then starting this company.

That was basically their second marriage, I guess, between him and Milan that they always said. so we just kind of firsthand witness kind of the hard work it takes to succeed, I guess. So yeah.

Kevin Lapes (05:55.734)
Somehow it didn't scare us away.

Gordon Sheppard (05:56.051)
And there would be, yeah, it didn't scare you. It's funny, cause I'm glad to hear the way you're describing it, cause you're both good natured folks. Do you know I mean? Having spent a bit of time with you and I don't hear school hard knocks. I hear, oh, here's the door open. Do you want to come in? Like from your dad's perspective or whatever. And there's something then that you folks embraced along the way to get that going. Is his voice in your heads, Kevin? Like, do know what mean? Like you're nodding. Go ahead, Kevin. Yeah, yeah.

Jeffrey Lapes (06:21.038)
very much so.

Kevin Lapes (06:21.239)
Daily.

daily we hear his voice, his little words of wisdom. That was a mix of Czech and English. Not everyone could understand him all the time, but we sure did. And his voice rings loud in our ears for sure. And I think.

Jeffrey Lapes (06:29.89)
Yeah.

Jeffrey Lapes (06:37.198)
even some of the decisions if he's shaking his head he's like I'm not sure what why you would have done that but very much lives on in the company every day and

Kevin Lapes (06:42.254)
What are you boys doing? Or wow.

Gordon Sheppard (06:46.34)
Isn't that, yeah, and that's so great. And then, you know, we saw you at the Business Leader Awards, put on by Business Seminary Magazine. What was it like to win the award and why did you win it? Go ahead, Jeff, let me know.

Jeffrey Lapes (07:02.926)
Well for us it was a great honour, very unexpected, just to be nominated by the peers and winning that award meant a lot to us. I think it also meant a lot just as a company in general from what Dad in Milan started in 1990.

wasn't just Kevin and I, that the foundation and morals of the company were all set and long-term employees and then we kind of made it our own over the last 10 years. So I think it just kind of maybe solidified everyone's kind of hard work over the company's history and what it took to even, you know, maybe gain some recognition and kind of...

celebrate the success, I guess, as a key.

Gordon Sheppard (07:54.141)
How nice to celebrate what is hard work. Your business is not an easy, and you're not, you know what I mean? Your company, don't mean to, you can tell me what the actual size is, but it's not PCL Construction or Ellis Dawn. Do know what mean? There's sort of a, there's a zone that you're working in, in the, you don't need to say the numbers. It's not, but you know, like mid-size-ish, you know I mean? When you're doing these projects. And that's its own type of animal to lead, to scale, you know, to scale to.

Kevin Lapes (08:04.878)
Correct.

Kevin Lapes (08:12.706)
Yep. Yep.

Gordon Sheppard (08:20.083)
do that sort of thing as you kind of go forward. So I'm really glad to hear that you got that recognition at the awards. And Kevin, what was that night like for you?

Kevin Lapes (08:26.9)
It was incredible. like Jeff said, just every day for us, literally year after year is head down, working in the business with our people, with our trades, with our consultants and engineers, right? Teams. And you kind of finish a project, you shake hands, you celebrate for a few minutes onto the next, onto the next. So what a time to invite some family. We invited the longest serving members of our company to the event. Really enjoyed it and kind of just celebrated the past, present and future.

That was the bottom line for us. Take a night to celebrate, thank some people and then back to it.

Gordon Sheppard (09:05.533)
Well, and I need to pick, yeah, go ahead.

Jeffrey Lapes (09:05.728)
Obviously being, sorry, being brothers obviously get to enjoy that together as a nice moment, right? So.

Gordon Sheppard (09:12.337)
And slows you down in the middle of those busy days. There's two things I need to pick up there. I heard long serving. That's really interesting, right? Because that speaks to the longevity of one leadership team to the next. And also I heard morals carried over in there. So Jeff, when you said morals, what are you talking about that the morals have had sort of a continuity through the whole time?

Jeffrey Lapes (09:30.486)
Yeah I think just I guess obviously growing up we saw it day to day but just even you know kind of getting into the company and how everyone operated and everyone's very open, honest, they treat every job whether it's know either laborer to owner every position in between like it's their own house so they care very much.

about each project, nothing's too big or too small. Yeah, and they just treat everyone with respect. yeah, so it's just, I think dad in the land kind of instilled that in everyone and hired the people that kind of fit that mold. And hopefully, I think Kevin and I have done a pretty good job kind of continuing that.

Gordon Sheppard (10:06.802)
So he brought-

Gordon Sheppard (10:17.692)
How lucky to be, get that foundation set up for yourself and get that going. Kevin, you mentioned long standing employee. Who is the long standing employee and why have they been a long standing employee?

Kevin Lapes (10:26.88)
Yeah, so we have a handful. So Manuel Ibasco, our project manager, senior project manager has been with us since 1999. Joseph gave him a chance when he was when he was coming to Canada and started as estimator and concrete kind of specialties from his background. And then kind of over the years got into the project management and that's been a steady

staple now with Pemko. He's doing all the big projects, ground up projects, large interiors, that sort of thing. So really trusted member and I think he just enjoys the team and felt that respect and that opportunity.

Gordon Sheppard (11:09.554)
And how lucky again to have leadership that have long standing employees. The value of a project manager in your business, they can walk anywhere for a few more bucks. Do you know what mean? If they really had to from what you're talking about. And now just help me out with understanding. If I said midsize for Pemco, if you had to describe sort of the scale of your company and maybe one or two highlight projects so that if I was gonna hire you in a sense, I would know.

Kevin Lapes (11:18.568)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (11:32.336)
the types of things that PEMCO does, and I'm sure it's a wide variety, but help me get an understanding of the types of projects that you folks tackle. Jeffrey, how would you describe that?

Jeffrey Lapes (11:40.27)
So we're about 30 people we've been pretty much 25 to 30 people kind of throughout our history on average, but we do basically anything from little service $300 projects to roughly about 5 million I would say bread and butter would be bigger interior renovations from 200 to a million dollars

Kevin Lapes (12:06.732)
That's a sweet spot for sure.

Jeffrey Lapes (12:08.334)
We have a couple of guys and project managers capable to do the new builds up to 5 million.

Gordon Sheppard (12:16.956)
There you go, and so we've got that sort of in play. so if I'm doing an interior, I'm in commercial, for example, I'm hiring you folks, because you're going to come in with the experience, get it done, get it done right with pride that you're talking about. And this is why your repeat business is happening, in a sense, why it would be easy to hire you, because you've got this track record. Am I making sense there, Kevin?

Kevin Lapes (12:29.624)
Yes.

Kevin Lapes (12:39.33)
Perfect sense, that's what we pride ourselves in is we don't need to market very often, you know, you don't hear about us on the radio or TV, but you'll see signage, a good website and repeat business. We've proven ourselves and continue by providing excellent service.

Gordon Sheppard (13:00.274)
Continue to do that. it's funny that you say that naturally, because it leads me into actually lucky for me, I get to have you on this podcast and say, you know, if you had to describe your biggest win, now that we have all the sort of the introduction in the context, what would that win be? And how would you describe it? Is there other one of you that wants to tackle that? Who wants to tackle that one?

Kevin Lapes (13:18.968)
Jeff, go ahead.

Jeffrey Lapes (13:19.214)
Yeah, you know, I could start it. I we always kind of jump in on each other after and fill the voids. But I would say we kind of have a lot of wins. think Kevin and I kind of agree on one that just, you know, kind of second generation success story, I guess, working together as brothers every day.

best friends get along, maybe not agree on everything, we make a decision together, live or die by it, and no matter what, we don't let decisions kind of get in the way of our egos or anything like that. And you kind of hear a lot of...

maybe not so many success stories on the second generation. just the fact it's already been 10 years together and I think we're going strong, growing the company, then I think that would probably be our biggest win. But we have a lot of other wins just with people and relationships. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (14:20.722)
No, I'll just jump in on that one and we're gonna tackle that one. I think it's really profound what you've just said. It makes a ton of sense. And Kevin, do you think he's framing that in the right way? Yeah, fully agree. And isn't that lucky? Cause one, it's one thing to be brothers, just to grow up together. It's another thing to run a company together, but to run a company together and be brothers and be second generation and take the handoff successfully, where, like you said, some of these long-serving employees, they didn't run away.

Kevin Lapes (14:29.57)
Beautiful, beautiful. I fully agree.

Jeffrey Lapes (14:31.277)
Yeah.

Kevin Lapes (14:39.65)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (14:49.906)
Right? you were, you know what I mean? So that continuity, there's something that your father, I'm sure your mom was a big part of it as well. Like something your parents did right to get you folks to be that way, to then get into the, you describe as this win, to have a successful company, second generation as brothers. Love it. It's a very unique thing that you're doing. And there's something from a leadership perspective, because that's what this podcast is about. Leaders get to listen and they get to hear, well, what's that secret sauce then? Um, that allows you to, cause you'd have moments where you do disagree.

Kevin Lapes (14:50.413)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (15:19.314)
you'd have a different perspective on, I don't know, how to run a project or whether we're doing financing or all those different things that we have to consider along the way. What's going on with you two as brothers? Was it there early on that you got along well? Was it something you had to earn? You know what I mean? Like, what is it that allowed you to sort of have this serendipity together? Jeff, how would you describe it?

Jeffrey Lapes (15:40.674)
Yeah, I think growing up dad always just said, you know, don't let anything get in the middle. We have a sister too, so don't let anything kind of get in the middle of you guys, whether it's money or anything, I guess. You look after each other and I think we just kind of, that was just kind of ingrained into us. kind of growing up, we were always best friends, hanging out with each other's friends and kind of intertwined. But I think...

When Kevin and I took over, I think over the last eight to 10 years, I think we kind of figured out maybe our different strengths and weaknesses and we kind of fill each other's voids on maybe on those parts that I think we just kind of become a good team. We also...

Gordon Sheppard (16:29.349)
Yeah, that's great. That's great to hear. I'm just going to jump in on that, Kevin, and say if you had to describe, you know, your strengths and his complimentary strengths, how would you describe? clients would ask you this. You know what mean? They'd say, you got the two brothers here. So Kevin, tell me what are you good at and what's Jeff good at and how would you describe it if you were talking to them?

Kevin Lapes (16:39.155)
yeah.

Kevin Lapes (16:45.56)
Yeah, perfect. So I think number one is we have the same work ethic. So that's number one, because without it, one's working every day, one's golfing every day, it doesn't work. Relationships are already hard enough as they are. To understand each other, to be there together is very, very important. And you hear a lot of failures and stuff like that because people don't see eye to eye. We understand that and we have those discussions.

But we ask each other, hey, what would you do in this situation or whatever? So bouncing ideas off each other, making a final decision together, live and die by it. That's what Jeff mentioned. That's what we do on a daily basis. Then we celebrate those successes together or cry about the failures or learn from them, discuss what happened, have a debrief review. What can we do better next time? Make those improvements. So working together that way is really critical.

Jeffrey Lapes (17:38.507)
Awesome.

Kevin Lapes (17:41.667)
My strength is people, I don't wanna call it marketing, but going out to events, chatting with people, my writing. So I do a lot of the prequals, prequalifications. We work together with Pauline in the office, quotations. Jeffrey is much better and understands construction details, site, the site guys. He can meet with them solution oriented.

very good with that stuff. I've learned that over the years, he's learned mine. So we've both improved drastically in each sphere, but have each other to also, hey, Jeff, I'm doing this estimate, what would you do in this situation? How long do you think that's gonna take? He sort of knows quicker, faster than me and.

Jeffrey Lapes (18:19.064)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (18:30.449)
So you've got the strengths in sort of, I'm going to say communication. And again, it's not to take away from the other, we hear, if we're going to have a company of this size with the 30 people, you know what I mean? If you duplicated each other's efforts, you would be out of business anyway. So, but I'm hearing strengths in what you're talking about, Jeff, on that sort of meet the people, communication side, there's something going on there. And then Jeff, you've got this ability to go then and make sure the projects get done well. Is that fair?

Kevin Lapes (18:32.782)
No, it's not.

Jeffrey Lapes (18:56.396)
Yeah, think like Kevin and I, we kind of oversee all the project managers and talk to them on a daily basis, very open door, right? Just how each job is going. I think we both have a style of not micromanaging, but we're involved in every project, whether it's attending meetings, biweekly meetings, and being there and talking to architects, clients, and everyone involved.

Kevin's definitely better on the business. He has the business mind. So I've definitely started to learn that over the last five years a little more. But yeah, I think we just compliment each other. And I think between Kevin and I, I think we're not afraid to ask questions or we know what we don't know. And we surround ourselves with people that are more intelligent or advanced in certain sectors.

Kevin Lapes (19:36.184)
Hope you

Gordon Sheppard (19:56.21)
So this is interesting, you're saying it also eloquently. Do you know what mean? You don't learn this instantly. This is earned over a decade, decade and a half of hit and miss. And like you said, and you smile, but we do have these peaks and valleys that we kind of go through. But I heard the win was, we're proud to be brothers in a second generation business who make this business successful. I'm going to sort of leave it at that as sort of your big win. And what a remarkable thing because it's really, it is remarkable because you know the other roadkill that's been paved by the other siblings that

Kevin Lapes (20:17.933)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (20:26.033)
gave it a try or that golfer, non-golfer combo or all those things I've been in the room with as an advisor in heavy situations with brothers actually that, know, where they just can't, they can't get down to that, but you've got the secret sauce somehow that is also, I can hear your parents echoing in this the whole time. Like it's not just you guys. So you've had this lucky upbringing as well. Great. So that's the win. Anytime we talk about a win on this show, we talk about the anatomy of a win was what is the strategy, work plan, people, operations and results.

to make this win occur. Strategy is always involving things like vision, mission, values, goals, this kind of thing. We've heard about some of the values. Do you know what mean? Work ethic has been mentioned in there. Always have each other's back. Make a decision, that's the final decision. You know, I mean, there's whether these are written down or not, I don't know, but they are sort of a code, code of ethics in a sense that build up the values. The vision for the company sounds like it's also shared. If you had to describe the vision for the company, Kevin, maybe I'll just ask you, what would you say the vision for the company is? And we'll see if that's there.

Kevin Lapes (21:24.546)
Yeah, so for me and well, Jeff and I together, the vision would be slow, healthy growth every year. Managing people. We're going to have some transition over the next few years with retirements and the new generation and that sort of thing. So we're already trying to tackle that now. Introducing new. The new energetic youth and into our mix and.

and the vision of the organizational culture, just that we've created that family business, that feel, we know everyone. We're able to chat with them personally, that open door policy. So steady growth so that doesn't disappear overnight, where all of a sudden we're too big and can't have that personal feel and touch. So I think we need

Gordon Sheppard (22:14.769)
Well, and I'll just jump in there and say, in your business, you're one contract away from explosion. Do you know what I mean? Like when I hear those moments and having touched on your industry at different parts of the business, just in my own work, there's moments when someone comes a-knockin' and suddenly millions turn into tens and hundreds of millions, possibly. But it's interesting that you're talking about steady growth, keep that family feel, which allows you to have that focused family feel. And that's an interesting thing. You're keeping it in a zone.

Kevin Lapes (22:34.158)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (22:42.513)
I didn't hear, we're 30 people today, we're gonna be 200 next year, we're gonna leverage, we're gonna, you know, all that, that's a different type of game plan strategically. Kevin, Jeff, is this resonating for what Kevin's saying as well?

Jeffrey Lapes (22:54.626)
Yeah, that's exactly it. even kind of first generation with Milan and Dad, I think they were a little bit more risk adverse and I think maybe that kind of got instilled in us that, you know, not to outstretch yourself beyond your means kind of thing. And I think we kind of take that into the business side of it and kind of review every situation a little more thorough, a little more detailed on

you know what could possibly be the risk of this or not but yeah I think you nailed it on the head.

Gordon Sheppard (23:29.969)
Well, congratulations. It's a remarkable thing in your business, again, to stay, you know what mean? To be in that size that you're in. You're not contracting. You know what mean? You're not growing, but you're getting ready for the future. So we hear strategically, we know kind of why the values and the vision are there, and you're executing. You're getting it done. And that repeat business side is remarkable, again, over decades. That's just a wonderful thing to hear. And that's a big piece of making this win occur. Anytime we have a strategy, we need a work plan.

So we've got a bit of a timeline here where I hear you folks took over the business eight to 10 years ago-ish in there. so there it is, 11 years. And it's always easy sailing, right? You took it over and there was no headaches at all and no peaks and valleys. Is that correct?

Kevin Lapes (24:02.85)
Yeah, it's like 11 years a month ago, something like that.

Jeffrey Lapes (24:04.716)
I love it. Yeah.

Kevin Lapes (24:13.166)
Absolutely wrong.

Jeffrey Lapes (24:13.388)
No, we wish I think we learned very early and frequently about the what not to do's and but we grew from every situation and

Kevin Lapes (24:24.866)
Yes.

Jeffrey Lapes (24:31.412)
And we rely on people that have been there before. And we like to pick other business owners' brains when we kind of network and stuff. And usually, no matter what industry they're in, everyone's kind of facing similar issues. So if you could pick other people's brains, how they're talking about it. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (24:52.784)
Well, in these 11 years that we're talking about, through a little COVID in the middle, do you know what I mean? Like you guys know as business owners what that was like in terms of your world, you know, to navigate along the way. But I'm hearing that this strategy has been consistent for a long time. Do know what I mean? Is that fair? Kevin, does that make sense? Yeah.

Kevin Lapes (24:56.183)
I need to

Kevin Lapes (25:06.56)
It has. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I think that was instilled in us early that we don't need to be the biggest guy in town. We don't need to be seen everywhere or maybe a bit of that ego or not. growth is important. But how is that growth? Is it healthy? Is it profitable? Are your people still enjoying what they're doing or is it beyond stressful? So all of those things in that risk management is

how we're choosing which projects we wanna do, which jobs we can do. Are they too big? Is there a lot of cashflow involved, right? So a lot of.

Gordon Sheppard (25:44.955)
Well, and does a ship get caught in a canal somewhere around the world where, again, I've seen it in your business where supply chain gets knocked out, your estimate goes off, you know what I mean? All that type of risk that you folks know more, way more about than I do, but I've seen those things as well, but you've managed through that timeline, through the peaks and valleys, through these sort of challenges through COVID and maintain that. There's secret sauce in here. This is a really interesting kind of case study in a sense to have foundational pieces.

Kevin Lapes (25:48.888)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (26:13.082)
that then are meeting the market, but I can also hear you're meeting the future. You're saying, wait, we have personnel changes coming up as well. So not only are we talking about a business 35 years and change in business, but there's adaptations at those major inflection points, whether you did them or they were handed to you from the economy, depending on what nature of where we're at. And so it's just a remarkable story. So we've got strategy, work plan, people are involved. You talked a lot about people. We heard a lot about your parents. It's fun for me. I don't know, I can't say that I've met them other than.

I feel sneaky that I've been around one of those kitchen table conversations when I hear, you know, your dad sounds like a great guy to meet in terms of someone who's be like, well, if you'd like to come, it's not like I didn't hear a heavy handed story. There's like a, no, if you'd like to come in and try it. But by the way, it sounds like there's a firmness in there that he would have put forward into you folks as well. And you talked about some of these longstanding employees and yourselves. Any other highlights when we talk about getting second gen brothers, you know, from the people perspective that we need to mention?

Jeffrey Lapes (26:44.579)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (27:08.836)
that makes this win occur? Jeff, what do think?

Jeffrey Lapes (27:12.334)
I don't know if this answers the question, but I think when we kind of took over, think we were maybe both a little worried. You were, you know, pretty young. think we were 20, I don't know, 24, 27 for Kevin or something. And it's kind of like...

our clients that dealt with dad in Milan all the time, are they gonna respect us or are they kinda gonna turn away just with our age if we kinda know what we're doing or not and if they have the trust there. So I think over the last 10 years, I think we kinda built that trust and honesty and kinda showed them Pemko's in good hands and we'll take care of you if you come to us. And now it's kinda come full circle or maybe

some of the younger generation, even though we're still young, of look up to us, which is nice, and pick our brain about stuff.

Kevin Lapes (28:04.495)
and we're seeing full circle projects and that we started, you we did a project 10 years ago and now it's coming back and we're doing another retrofit for them 10 years later and yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (28:05.008)
So build,

Sorry, said...

Gordon Sheppard (28:16.144)
Well, and in your world, you hear that, right, because that thing of especially around capital projects, right, capital budgets take time. And so you said, wait a second, we did one well 10 years ago when we were younger. Now we're a little older and a little smarter. And that one came around. How did that feel?

Kevin Lapes (28:31.065)
Very nice that 10 years later someone still thinks, nope, it's Kevin and Jeff that are gonna do this project, Pemko and the team, without a doubt, and those clients, it's just, makes this all worth it.

Gordon Sheppard (28:44.856)
Yeah, and it's funny, it sounds like you guys sleep well at night. Generally, is that fair? Right? There's the odd, you know, but for the most part, you're talking about, if we talk about construction and you know what I mean, like when we talk about how tough it is on people, it sounds like there's some balance in there, maybe as opposed to the wild swings that we're talking about over the way. So neat to hear, again, long-standing employees, there's you folks, you know, with your eyes on it for the whole time, plus the takeover.

Kevin Lapes (28:49.623)
yeah, there's times.

Jeffrey Lapes (28:50.51)
Yeah.

Kevin Lapes (28:53.614)
Yes.

Kevin Lapes (29:00.206)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (29:14.264)
And then your clients are another factor in people that are there as well. And if I'm sure if we got into the entire stakeholder group, we would hear suppliers that have been with you for a long time and those types of things as well as we go forward. Good strategy, work plan, people. Operationally, what's going on operationally that is allowing you to keep it the way you want it successfully. And you get these clients coming back over and over again. Jeffrey, if you had to describe that, what would you say?

Jeffrey Lapes (29:40.014)
I think everyone kind of sees that Kevin and I are involved. If they need something, they can give us a call anytime. I guess we're always open and available. We respond right away. I think that's said with everyone in our company. So I think just everyone kind of has that same...

Everyone has that kind of same, I don't even know how to describe it. Same approach,

Kevin Lapes (30:10.307)
mentality.

Gordon Sheppard (30:10.703)
Same approach to sort of customer service in a sense, right? In terms of what that is, whether it's the employees or the clients, it sounds like you're available and ready to help them. Kevin, anything about operationally, like is it systems, processes, thinking?

Kevin Lapes (30:23.727)
Yeah, so that's exactly what I was just going to say is I think over what you know, when we took over and whatever, there was some pretty archaic construction is slow to adopt anyway. Yes, there's innovations and stuff, but everything's, oh, I'd rather do paper safety and whatever. So we've slowly made changes to the systems, better software for construction management, better estimating programs. We use the same estimating program, I think, for 25 to 30 years.

We just made a change about whatever within the last year, new systems that integrate into the contracts, into purchase orders. So improving the system slowly. We've adopted digital site safety to help the guys on site, the workers on site, make it easier, faster. So we're just, we're adopting that, getting into that. So operationally cleaning it up a bit to firstly protect ourselves from liability and make it.

a lot more suitable and efficient to bring in new workers, new project managers, you know, the new generation doesn't want to do stuff on paper, it's everything's digital, it's on your phone, you're mobile, you're on the cloud. So to keep up with that stuff, we've definitely spent some money and made some changes, which I think we're seeing some really good results now.

Jeffrey Lapes (31:22.592)
Efficient.

Gordon Sheppard (31:41.904)
I'm glad to hear it because those efficiencies are needed in your business for sure and I'm sure AI will be that next thing that you face down whether it because there's there's fits and starts in the AI world right now and so glad to hear that you've got that in the background. On the safety side folks don't know that it keeps them safe but I'm glad to hear that perspective around liability safety but it fits in also with what I've heard from your again morals and vision and values for the company around keeping people long-standing while adapting to this new workforce that you're inevitably having to kind of deal with.

Kevin Lapes (31:47.445)
yeah, I love it.

Jeffrey Lapes (31:50.67)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (32:10.831)
along the way. So there's that, there's something about the operational thinking. Like there's a continuity in those two brains that I'm looking at right now that are also part of that continuity going forward. Is that fair, Kevin? What do you think?

Kevin Lapes (32:21.167)
Yep, yep, that's exactly it. With the technology comes people who are used to technology. So basically all of it comes together in that next 10 year plan, basically. We've improved technologies, we're keeping up with the times, bringing in people who understand it and will be with us for the next 20 years, for example, right? And so it all kind of works together and it takes time.

Gordon Sheppard (32:47.651)
And then there's something in there about completing good projects. Do you know what mean? if I went through your photo album right now, you would show me, I don't know, genius things that you did or moments that you had to solve or moments where you had a special issue and you worked it through. Is that true, Kevin? Jeff, on your side, what do think?

Kevin Lapes (33:04.633)
Very true, especially today in times where let's face it costs since COVID have escalated a lot. That's fact. Everyone sees it. Everyone knows that we're spending more on projects. It's costing more to do projects. So cost savings, thinking outside the box, alternatives. That's a lot of our business right now is okay, we have.

Jeffrey Lapes (33:05.153)
Yes.

Jeffrey Lapes (33:22.414)
Yeah, even trying to keep more often trying to keep stuff local, right, to a little bit. So because you long lead times on everything now and just to get stuff across the border is a challenge sometimes. So, you know, try to find, like Kevin said, find different routes or alternatives, material that can make the job more efficient.

Gordon Sheppard (33:44.42)
Yeah, and there's something also about your own operational updating of your leadership ability. Like this is something, you guys are a work in progress every day. It's not like your communication stops and then you don't, you know what I mean? You said, we're out there talking to other business leaders, we're constantly getting in new information in a very dynamic business, and yet still, the success story that you're describing, you're not like we crashed out and whatever. There's like, I'm sure there's up and downs, but to maintain it in that level is quite.

Kevin Lapes (33:52.526)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (34:10.255)
Quite remarkable. Strategy, work plan, people, operations. Finally, there's results. Quantitative results and qualitative results. I'm not here to open up your books. What I'm suggesting is you've made a few dollars. Do you know what mean along the way? if we had to say you're a healthy, profitable business, would that be a good characterization, a way to put it? Any other quantitative things that you want to mention that are important? You mentioned the 30, you know.

Kevin Lapes (34:26.564)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (34:33.647)
30 people with some long-standing people. They're sort of on the employee side. Any other quantitative highlights that you'd to point out to people? Number of projects completed, number of clients, like any of those types of things that are important to get out to the world.

Kevin Lapes (34:46.765)
Yeah, quantity of projects has increased every year by quite a bit. I think over since COVID, we grew in during COVID. A lot of the school renovations that we do all the time, the flood gates opened there with no kids and a lot of renovations happening. Alberta Health Services needed a lot of stuff, we did. So just having that steady growth.

Probably since Dad and Milan, we've tripled at least, quadrupled almost in volumes, revenues, that sort of thing. But again, with always in mind that it has to be healthy. You can do a hundred million and make no money or you can do 30 million and have a healthy margin, right? So it's very important.

Gordon Sheppard (35:30.219)
Absolutely, and again we can hear it's not just profit driven that we're talking about. It's a very holistic conversation that you folks have kind of worked out along the way. Quantitatively for you, Jeff, any of the quantitative side?

Jeffrey Lapes (35:42.71)
I would say it's, guess, like Kevin said, over COVID, it's nice to see the, we always kind of track the amount of jobs we do a year. And I think this last fiscal year was the most amount of jobs we ever did in a year. And there was never a relaxing moment, but it was nice to, our main goal is to keep everyone in the company busy.

And that's always one of our more stressful things we think about at night is where the next job's coming from and our employee's gonna be busy. that was kind of my biggest thing from last year is that, was that kind of number. yeah.

Kevin Lapes (36:24.249)
Enter.

Gordon Sheppard (36:24.408)
Yeah, and how nice to see steady growth over time, which means again, you're doing something right in your formula that you've kind of put together. Finally, there's qualitative results too. Jeff, how does it feel to get this win as a second gen brother, know, brother in a, you know, being a brother doing that thing? Like, how does it feel?

Jeffrey Lapes (36:42.126)
Well yeah, feels, I mean think Kevin and I always say, you I don't think we would do it without each other. So it feels great, we wouldn't be able to do any of it without the team that we have or the clients that we have, know, architects and everyone kind of working as a team. It's a, sub trades and everyone, right? So it is Pemko's name, but there's a lot of people behind it that make it successful. And...

Kevin Lapes (36:57.487)
Sub trades, yeah.

Jeffrey Lapes (37:07.734)
I any business kind of probably feels the same way that everyone's working for the one name of the company, but it takes everyone to make it successful, right? So we've gained a lot of relationships with...

with people is probably kind of our other second biggest win is the friendships and relationships that we've made with clients and sub-trades and suppliers which you know carried us through even difficult times that's kind of what you rely on is when it you know during COVID you don't know what's happening then you rely on your clients to come back to you and you know fill that void so yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (37:49.666)
So it feels pretty good. Kevin, how's it feel for you?

Kevin Lapes (37:52.515)
amazing. Honestly, like we said, don't think me and Jeff spend enough time actually, wow, what did we just do?

Jeffrey Lapes (37:59.47)
Yeah, and with, I guess, young kids of our own, we always drive by like dad did with us, right? It's like, hey, we did that job or this job, and you kind of share memories with them. Dad did that with us all the time that we still remember from 20 years ago, 25 years ago in the yeah, so.

Kevin Lapes (38:03.213)
Hey, we're doing.

Kevin Lapes (38:14.593)
all over the city, over the province, northern region of the province, and amazing to share those successes and those fun projects and see if they'll be interested in the future, who knows.

Jeffrey Lapes (38:24.205)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (38:27.156)
Yeah, that's interesting. There's another kitchen table conversation going on as sort of things grow. That's really interesting in terms of what you're going to be setting up going forward. Well, this has been a real pleasure to learn about your win. Congratulations on a unique story, a brother story in second gen. Second gen is a big deal. Statistically, it's a tough move, like in terms of actually to pull it off, but to have that similar work ethic and all those things that you've put together that you are simply evolving and growing even more. If I talk to you again in two years,

Jeffrey Lapes (38:31.106)
You're welcome.

Kevin Lapes (38:35.022)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (38:56.12)
five years as leaders, you're strengthening that area all the time. I always like to ask just at the end here, if you had other leaders that you were talking to and you maybe were able to pass on one or two nuggets, you know, maybe I'll start with Jeff and I'll finish with Kevin here. But Jeff, anything that you'd like to say to leaders in terms of leadership lessons that you've learned that you might want them to learn from you?

Jeffrey Lapes (39:18.274)
Yeah, think maybe a couple things. guess try to find your leadership style. I played a lot of sports growing up and I always hear like some leaders are more vocal, some leaders are more show it and just through your hard work and effort. So try to find your leadership kind of style. then next is don't ever...

I guess for me, guess don't ever feel like, you know, in our company no one's ever too big to do anything. We try not to let your ego get in the way sometimes, yeah, and surround yourself with knowledgeable people that, you know, you know what you don't know and surround yourself with the right people and yeah, helps a lot.

Gordon Sheppard (40:08.472)
Kevin, last words on the leadership side?

Kevin Lapes (40:10.639)
I absolutely agree with Jeff and humble, I guess we learned from humble beginnings and we tried to keep that with our kids, our people live by that, respect others, keep it. We're all in it together. Everyone's working to make a buck and that's it. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (40:32.696)
That's the way it goes. Well, what a pleasure to meet you both. Thank you so much for generously sharing your story that many leaders are going to get a chance to learn from. Kevin, Jeff, thank you for being on the show.

Kevin Lapes (40:43.587)
Thank you, Gordon, for the chance, the opportunity. What a privilege. And we get to try something new and have a really nice chat. So thank you.

Jeffrey Lapes (40:44.174)
Thank you so much for having us.

Jeffrey Lapes (40:54.488)
Thank you so much.