EW 055 – How Leaders Can Develop Their Emotional Intelligence To Grow Themselves, Their Teams and Their Businesses: Winning With Carolyn Stern, CEO of EI Experience

Gordon Sheppard (00:01.26)
Carolyn, welcome to the show.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (00:04.029)
Hi, and thanks for having me.

Gordon Sheppard (00:06.434)
Well, we are just so lucky to have someone in here who is a true impact person across North America and around the world. I've seen you in action speaking at a conference. I've seen you in action and the people around your table at a conference with you signing books and seeing, I was stunned at seeing transformation happen in seconds. Your ability to exchange with people and then really honestly influence them.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (00:23.305)
Hahaha

Gordon Sheppard (00:35.822)
and witness that is something that I've sort of had first hand knowledge with along with learning a little about some of the work that you've done. But there's a lot of people that haven't met you. So if you had to introduce yourself to them, what would you say?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (00:48.137)
My name is Carolyn Stern and I'm an emotional intelligence speaker, trainer and author.

Gordon Sheppard (00:56.962)
I think that's unfair and a little bit modest for what you've done. Like give me an example of, if I saw you at a conference, because I've seen your demo as an example, if people go to carolynstern.com and check it out, you know, you're in some of the biggest stages, making some of the biggest impacts. You're also in small rooms, you're doing these workshops, you're doing what you do. When I get an experience with you, I have to really help me paint the picture. Like you walk onto that stage, what happens when you're interacting with an audience and how are you really transforming?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (01:00.883)
you

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (01:14.631)
Yeah. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (01:26.498)
their emotional state in lives.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (01:29.609)
I think by being vulnerable and letting people know that I too struggle with this, it's not like I was born with emotionally intelligent parents and I'm gifted in this area. I've been spending over 25 years studying this. So nine out of 10 times I'm in the driver's seat of my feelings, but there's still that one out of 10 time.

that my emotions take over. So because I'm pretty real on stage, yes, I'm an academic and have my background in academia, but I think I talk human and because I share, I call them wobbly bits on stage, I share what I struggle with. I'll never forget getting three emails from three different students 10 minutes before my last class and you

I'm sick, my dog ate my homework and all of those things. And I was so angry. And the funny thing was I stomped into my classroom and it was my emotional intelligence class. And I stood there, you know, at the back of the class and said, okay, you're up, do your presentation. And then, you know, if I'm being honest, I went into full drill sergeant. My last name is Stern. I was certainly living my name. And the students could feel my wrath.

Right? So we all leave an emotional wake behind so they could feel my emotions. And because of that, they were scared. And one by one, they went up and did their final assignment. And if I'm being honest, I'm not proud of this. I probably gave them more critical feedback than positive. And I was pretty direct and harsh. And then halfway through the class, I did what I teach others to do. I zoomed out and went, what the hell?

are you doing? You're angry at the wrong students. These are the brave ones that showed up. But what that lesson taught me and why I share this on stage and in my classes and in my workshops is what I didn't know is that dishonesty is a big trigger of mine. And why?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (03:40.477)
because my dad was a pretty dishonest man. And so when those three emails came into my inbox, it had nothing to do with those three students. It had to do with my daddy issues. And what I try to remind people is when you're triggered at work, it tends to be because one of your value system, which is honesty for me, I value honesty. Growing up, I didn't have a lot of that. So I value it now. When your values are compromised,

at work, it tends to trigger you. And so if we can be aware of what our triggers are, which tend to be when our value system is someone's rubbing up against it, then we can be ahead of it. So what the moral of the story was, know thyself, right? Know what triggers you. Pay attention to yourself. Had I zoomed out before I stomped into my classroom, I would have realized I was angry.

and then created a bit of a pause in between my emotion and my response to those brave students that did show up. finally, when you make a mistake, apologize. So halfway through the class, I owned up to my mistake and the students' mouth dropped because they were shocked that their professor would have apologized publicly.

But I'm a firm believer you've got to model the way. So when you make a mistake, you own it, you apologize for it. So that little example of one of the times when my emotions took over, I share on stage and I think people can resonate because how many of us have let our emotions run amok at work or at home? And I will write it later.

Gordon Sheppard (05:23.202)
There's a couple things coming up for me here now that just sort of jump in. One, thanks for having the lived experience and then the pulling it together to help others experience. People on this podcast are like 20 years in, 30 years into their game to be as eloquent as you've just been. That was a mini masterclass in like, well, here's an example and here's what you do and here's how we do it. And somebody could take something immediately actionable away from what you've just said. And you can hear, mean, you know, your intentionality in that, terms of what you're doing, you're taking me back to being a young dad.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (05:40.541)
Thank you.

Gordon Sheppard (05:53.153)
I wish I knew. When I think about my daughter who's now 22 going on 23 and what I just didn't know and it took me until about grade four when we started to figure out what was going on in her life and then what was going on there. The grace came later, but boy boy, those early years with again those triggers, those expectations and yes, I could take it back to my own parent stories that are a part of it. And so thank you for in a sense giving me permission to articulate.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (05:53.481)
You

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (06:18.322)
Gordon Sheppard (06:18.83)
You know, you said this is it and this is what's related and we know and so suddenly you gave me a pathway almost immediately so I can imagine being in the audience there or if I could have been the one getting an autograph at your book table. I can see how you connect in there really quickly, you're doing your thing, we hear the academics in behind there and I'm sure a lot of people can go deeper on the biography to learn more about what you're doing but we've got a good flavour now. That's great. So it leads me to sort of our first question in this podcast format anyway is to say, you know, if you had to describe in all this work that you've done,

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (06:26.825)
Hmm.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (06:30.707)
Haha

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (06:42.791)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (06:48.654)
Your biggest win. What would that win be and how would you describe it?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (06:52.937)
It's hard to point to just one single win in my career because for me, the true win has been the journey, you know, a 20 plus year evolution of really my impact, growth and purpose driven work. So, however, that said, there's a couple of milestones that I think really stand out. So one of the biggest long-term wins has been in my early decision to invest in

creating online emotional intelligence courses well before online learning was popular or as mainstream as it is today. So well before it was cool. At the time it was a bit of a gamble because people questioned whether deep emotional work could be taught online effectively and self-directed. But I believed in the content. I'm living proof of why I'm so passionate about emotional intelligence is this changed my life.

And so I know this can be taught and the process and the power of EQ. So these courses built years ago are still selling at record rate. And that tells me something important that technology can change, but the fundamentals of emotional intelligence are the same. Self-awareness, empathy, emotional regulation, interpersonal effectiveness, never go out of style. And I think organizations are hungry to develop those.

human-centered skills in their people.

Gordon Sheppard (08:21.806)
That makes so much sense. So you were pioneering in a sense in early days and it's funny because we could go back there would be some tech nightmares in there where you had to get courses loaded up. Do know what mean? If we talked about, right?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (08:31.369)
yeah. And you know what, again, talk about a journey. I remember spending $125,000 on the design, on the production. I mean, these are Hollywood quality videos. I had a nine person production team. You know, we were on location, like different locations now with...

All you need is a podcast mic and an in-house studio, you can do it much cheaper. But I really felt quality was important. The mistake that I made back then is I was, know, if you build it, they will come. And that's not what happened, right? I spent all my money on how pretty the videos were and how good the content was, but I spent no money on marketing. And so my second win where I...

think I made the most significant win was publishing my book, The Emotionally Strong Leader, which really captures much of what I've learned over two decades of teaching at the university, coaching clients and leading organizations and leading their people to lead their organizations. And it's been rewarding work.

to see leaders around the world resonating with this message that emotions are not a liability at work. Like if I could tell you the one key message from the book is that emotions are not the enemy. You need to make friends with their feelings, their data points, and they truly could be your superpower if we learn to be in the driver's seat of our emotions rather than our emotions driving us. So that.

Gordon Sheppard (10:13.078)
And some people, yeah, some people get into that driver's seat and some people never get into it. What you do is through your coaching and the outreach and the resources that you're providing is massive impact. I can't even imagine sort of the, if we go to revenue alone, the loosening that you would create within organizations for them to get control of themselves and their emotions. The 360 I know that I take in the coaching work and advisory work that I do, you would be a huge piece of not just that in their work lives, but obviously in their whole life.

You're extending lifetimes and you're helping, you you would know the impacts of stories that you would have had on relationships and how that goes. It just must be unlimited.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (10:51.881)
And so rewarding to hear that, you know, mostly I work with senior executives or mid-level managers or sometimes even frontline managers, but to hear, you know, a C-suite executive saying his relationship with his son changed dramatically after, you know, having those honest conversations that I encouraged him to have and get vulnerable with his son or to say another...

know, client of mine would say, you know, you've changed my marriage. I have more intimacy with my partner or, you know, another professional saying I finally was able to speak up to my boss and to say, you know, what he was doing was disrespectful and it landed well and he heard me and, you know, my relationship improved. So to me, I think emotional intelligence is the answer to any personal or interpersonal problem out there.

And the book, I purposely created it as a work style guide. So halfway through the book, I take people through my six step method, which includes 11 worksheets in the book. inside, at the end of the book, there's a QR code that takes you to a whole series of videos and an additional workbook. So it's truly a book and a half, but I wanted to give readers, because not everyone can afford to hire me as a coach. Not everyone can afford to bring me in.

as their trainer for their organization. wanted to make sure my courses, my online courses taught me that people wanted to hear this and I wanted to give people a resource that they could have at their fingertips and I'm really proud of what came out of it.

Gordon Sheppard (12:36.44)
Congratulations. mean, how neat that you've got the motivation to maximize your impact. That's not just saying, I'm just going to go hang out with the C-suite folks on the weekend, which you're already making an impact, which is great because that goes top down with getting your message to flow. You're reaching all different levels of an organization, but you're also reaching a wider audience because you understand the importance of it. And if I say sort of the context of our geopolitical times, you're making a dent. the work that you're doing to build capacity in individuals

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (13:00.647)
Yes. Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (13:06.408)
and in organizations is massively needed. it's funny if we pull out to the macro for a second, we're a bit stunted in our emotional intelligence as countries, as whole societies. We are missing the lessons that you're already brought into this conversation and more, and you can hear it. And then you've also put it in an accessible way. You've got the university experience, it could all be academic and cited, which could get certain people excited, but no, you've got it in a way that's accessible, those worksheets, you can hear the practicality.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (13:16.074)
absolutely.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (13:24.574)
Yes.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (13:32.147)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (13:34.402)
that so many people would gain the benefit from just picking up your book and going through that process. Well, what a gift that you found what is truly sounding like a mission driven life, like a whole life that, know, yeah.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (13:45.201)
It really has been. It really has been. And you said it yourself, we're more politically divided and emotionally charged than ever before. that's, I'm just writing about it in my second book right now about the, you know, how this is so relevant, not only in the workplace, but in our home lives when, you know, generations are now living, you know, multiple generations are living under one roof, right?

We've got grandparents living with their children. I think I get asked a lot about multi-generational leadership, right? The Gen Zs, so 27 and unders, have a steady show, have a different emotional makeup than us as a Gen X. And if I'm leading a Gen Z, I can't just do what I would do because they don't necessarily have the same emotional makeup. And you know,

The one thing that I was going to say, because we did sit beside each other at the conference and you got to see the impact, you know, I started offering 15 minute coaching sessions at my booth and I wasn't sure, you know, are people going to come up and want to talk to me about an emotional issue? And I was shocked to see that in 15 minutes we got right to the heart of the issue because I know, you know, having done this work for over two decades, I know the kinds of questions to ask.

to kind of get to the heart of the issue. The challenge in the workplace, leaders don't know how to do that. And so a lot of times when someone comes into your office with a problem, either you're thinking, okay, do I put on my problem solving hero cape and come in and save the day? Or do I coach them through the problem so that they unearth the solution themselves?

And a lot of people don't know how to coach with emotional intelligence, which is again why I built a whole course on it. I, Yes, yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (15:41.934)
Well, and I'll just jump into having seen the 15 minute thing in action, I was stunned. mean, these people were, you're connect, there's your skillset to connect with someone very, very quickly. And like you said, get to the heart of the matter. And I wonder if, I hope that's rubbed off in as many people as possible because the, I, know, in that practice of joy for facilitation, know that I have, there's not a lot of people that are dedicated to facilitating at that level. Like when you're talking about this black belt, double black belt.

level of emotional intelligence that you're talking about. And then to do it in 15 minutes, you can get a lot done in 15 minutes if you've got that right way. Because you can hear that you set a safe space immediately. The people would be able to know that they can trust you in a confidential manner and get to the heart of what they need to get to very, very quickly. Well, wow, we could have this nine hour conversation. This is lucky.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (16:09.275)
Yep. Yep.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (16:14.76)
Totally.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (16:26.569)
And a quick tip for your listeners is this. So when someone comes into your office and wants to kind of complain about the problem, here's what I do to put some limits around it. After about five minutes of them venting, I say in 12 words or less, what's the issue? And then if they can't come up with the issue, I say, you know what, go back, go away, think about it.

come back to me once you know what the issue is. Then once they know what the issue is, then we move into solution. Because I don't, mean so often, so many of us can focus on problem, right? Whatever you focus on grows, right? If you focus on the problem, the problem grows. If we focus on solutions, solutions grow. So for about five minutes, I let them talk about, know, give me context of what's going on. And then I ask them in 12 words or less, what's the real issue? A lot of time what that real issue is,

is what are they afraid of? And when we get to fear, what are they fearing? That's really the main point.

Gordon Sheppard (17:34.124)
And if we could just remember that before we then have to have that hour long manager employee conversation, which no one in the situation has sort of the skill set to navigate. What you've just done is given us, you've given us a box, like we can actually put this into some parameters to make it kind of work in the context of a work day. Cause we don't have, right?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (17:38.206)
That's right.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (17:44.989)
And it's not your job.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (17:49.116)
Exactly.

And it's not your job to be someone's emotional therapist. Quite frankly, most of us are not qualified. But what we can do is say, you know, what's the issue? What are you feeling? What is that feeling telling you about you, the others in the situation? And what are you going to do about it? And how can I support you? If you ask those few questions, people can unearth a whole bunch of things, but we've got to figure out what's really getting in their way.

of where they are now and where they wish to be.

Gordon Sheppard (18:26.434)
I was in a teaching a workshop the other day and someone said, I have an open door policy. said, shut the door. Like I'm just this thing of like, I can talk to anybody for any length of time and I do work on the weekends and at home. Like what you're talking about quickly, you can see you're coming into the situation. You're helping them to guard their own emotional and sort of energy limits. by when we hear 12 words, when we hear 15 minutes, these are things that make sense and are very translational into a workplace setting. And you can hear all of your backup.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (18:31.177)
Hahaha

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (18:40.317)
Yes.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (18:49.427)
That's right.

Gordon Sheppard (18:56.472)
Thank you for the 20 years. So this 20 year overnight success story in a sense is what I think the win is if I can take on and we've already heard some highlights along the way, big ones like those massive investment in online training when it wasn't a thing, a pioneer in online training and then putting everything into the book, the book that you wanted to write that now is having a major impact and then all the second book is on its way and we can hear those things too. Wonderful. So 20 year overnight success story. Let's jump into what I call the anatomy of a win.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (18:58.195)
Hahaha

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (19:02.897)
Yes, sure.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (19:21.481)
Ha

Gordon Sheppard (19:23.54)
and look at the strategy, work plan, people, operations, and results behind it. When we look at strategy, we talk about values, vision, mission. That's screaming through what you're talking about right now. You've got it on your sleeve around what you're trying to do. Is there any highlights strategically that you think have allowed this 20-year win to occur?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (19:35.731)
Yep.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (19:42.409)
You know, my vision's clear, to help people embrace emotions, to elevate their leadership. I really want to normalize being human at work, so making it okay to be human at work, which means emotions aren't weaknesses, they're data points. They aren't something that should be feared, but they're something that connects and bonds us all. So teaching people that feelings aren't good or bad, or wrong.

but our information, our messengers. You know, I just did a workshop that I was talking about the gifts of each emotion, right? The gifts of fear is it keeps us prepared. You know, it made sure I checked my fly before coming on, you know, stepping on stage, right? The gift of doubt, it keeps us humble. It reminds me I'm not the smartest person in the room, right? The gift of anxiety is it scans the future. It warns me of what could go wrong so I can have a contingency plan.

Gordon Sheppard (20:38.989)
Well, and you can hear your 20 years soaking into a few words at a time. it's, that sounds so eloquent, right? The gift of anxiety, wait a minute. That's like, that gets me. I'm already, and you're flipping me from, let me just, thank you so much for putting that so eloquently. That's wonderful. So we've got your, you know, we've got your vision, which we understand. And we hear the sort of the goals that you had, and I'm sure the goals are almost unlimited, cause you know, help a million people, help a billion people, wherever you're sort of.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (20:46.597)
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (20:52.295)
Yeah, flipping the script. Flip, flip the script. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (21:08.333)
headed towards in terms of what you're doing and you're having these major impacts along the way. Anytime we have a strategy, we need a work plan. And the work plan, we've already heard a couple of highlights. If we've got that timeline out, let's call it 20 years ago. Do you think 05 is kind of when you got your gears turning? Like was it 2000, 2000, when it...

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (21:23.833)
No, think really, to be honest, the seeds were planted and I talk about this in my book, the seeds were planted in my 20s when I was a high school teacher teaching 18 year olds and I was teaching them an entrepreneurship class. And on the first day of class, I had a fistfight between one of the boys and girls in the class. And I thought, you know, here I am, 27 years old, only, you know, a few years older than these kids. How are they going to listen to me, let alone learn from me?

And so what I did was, again, I didn't know what I was doing at the time, but what I did was I thought these poor kids, these two kids that got into the fist fight were troublemakers in the school. So I did what no one, what my colleagues thought was crazy. I made them, it was an entrepreneurship class. I made one of them the VP of Production and I made the other one the VP of Human Resources. And I gave these kids more responsibility than they had ever had. I trusted them.

And I worked with them and they had their emotional and social wobbly bits, let's say. But because I believed in them before they could believe in themselves, it changed things. And that's when I realized when you can connect with people on an emotional level, great things can change. And interestingly enough, Gord, when I was finishing writing this book, thank goodness for social media, I reached, I tried to find both of them through Facebook. I found

the girl. And she told me, and again, I had no idea. This was, you know, I'm 54 now, so this is, you know, 30 years later. She told me what you didn't know is I was in and out of foster homes and she was a troublemaker. And she said, you know, you stayed with me, you believed in me. And that made all the difference. And she's still to this day.

thanks me for her success now and now she has her own career. But it was such an amazing, 30 years later talking to this student, I had no idea what was going on underneath the surface.

Gordon Sheppard (23:31.743)
Isn't that interesting? So you're having your lived experience and there's instinctive things that are happening. It's not formed yet in a sense, right? But you've got good instincts. You've got sort of your own bundle and your own life experience coming to that moment. And that thing of doing things that your colleagues didn't think was a good idea. Wait a minute, you can't give those troublemakers. then, you know, but wobbly bits wasn't quite here just yet. The eloquence wasn't there quite yet. When did it start to sort of then shape up after there? Yeah.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (23:36.327)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (23:56.635)
Okay, great question. So having been a university professor for so many years, I could see what we were graduating and what we were not teaching. And in the book, actually, one of the first few chapters, I talk about what I observed in the classroom. So things like students not standing up for themselves and taking the lion's share of the work. Students sending snotty emails or texts to other students when they, you know,

didn't do what they meet their expectations. And all of these, you so I showed all my observations and then I looked through the data, right? Then my academia came in. Let me see the data that proves what I'm seeing in the classroom. The problem with our modern workforce is what's plaguing our classrooms. Students don't have the emotional and social skills that are needed, yet we're graduating them. So it took me

five years to lobby to integrate an emotional intelligence in the School of Business. And I'm happy to say before I retired, because I just retired this last year, now there is an emotional intelligence course in our School of Business. And we're one of the few in Canada and certainly across North America. But I could see that we're not teaching them to have confidence in themselves.

to make decisions when emotions are involved, to set boundaries, to not have so much empathy, you getting meshed in other people's stuff, and you put their needs before yours. I could see all of these things with my students in teaching leadership and organizational behavior that I thought, you know what, I need to start creating curriculum. And that's when my business really took off. And that was in...

probably my 30s, so like I've been running my corporation now for 20 years this year. So I really started seeing, building courses. And then when the book came out, my speaking career really catapulted. But I have been a corporate trainer for 20 years. And so not only in the workplace, but I still teach in the classroom.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (26:13.545)
students as well as professionals how to build emotional and social skills.

Gordon Sheppard (26:18.069)
I love it. This is really valuable. So now we got seeds in your 20s in a sense. We get going in your 30s. We're challenging systems. Thank you for doing that. I would just have a wonderful 10 hour conversation with you. From that system challenge alone, because you can hear I'm in the high school setting. I'm going to try something different. I'm in the university setting. I've done an MBA. I did it at the University of Alberta. It was a really good experience overall.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (26:26.461)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (26:40.225)
Was emotional intelligence offered as a class? It was not. Did they teach a leadership class? They did. Would they have paid a moment of lip service to it? And it's funny to me, when I look out in the world and I see the engineering schools that need your curriculum, the doctors that need your curriculum, at least as something to come out in the world and be semi-rounded, aware of that kind of thing. So I'm glad to hear that you then not only challenged the system, but then got it into, like you said, being one of the few institutions that's going to recognize that because of just that momentum of what

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (26:51.665)
yeah. yeah.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (27:06.387)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (27:09.067)
those institutions are doing and yet you're on the, it shouldn't be the cutting edge, but you are the cutting edge of what is needed. Do you know what I mean? When you say, this is the rapid way to access your emotional ability and then you're very quick to be able to help us locate ourselves in, you help us find ourselves in what you're saying, right? And then we can then do something about it. Is that fair?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (27:09.852)
And.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (27:14.825)
you

Yeah, well...

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (27:27.197)
Well, that's it. That's it. starts with that. It starts with that. It's starting with know thyself, right? So we've got to figure out what our emotional makeup default is. Where are we right now? What's our baseline? So for me, I struggle with independence. People are always surprised by that because I run my own company. I'm financially independent. I travel by myself.

That's not the kind of independence I'm talking about. I care too much about what people think. It's emotional dependence. I need a lot of validation. Well, where does that come from? I had a beautiful helicopter mother. Unfortunately, she just passed away two years ago, just this last weekend. But she was pivotal for me because she loved me so much, she tried to do everything for me. However, because of that,

I now, as a 54-year-old, am a little needy. I need a lot of, you know, I care too much what people think. I don't trust all my decisions. I need a lot of validation. So that's one of my wobbly bits. The other wobbly bit is I'm very flexible, too flexible. So I talk about this in the book. There's the dark side of emotional intelligence. So flexibility is a good thing to have, but when you have too much of it, when it's overplayed, you can overaccommodate.

So those two aren't a great combination, right? When I'm highly over accommodating because I care too much about what people think, what I need to do is be a little bit more stringent and care a little bit less and do what's right maybe for the business and not necessarily for everyone else so that everyone's happy.

Gordon Sheppard (29:08.941)
And again, we're hearing you thankfully, let us know from your own experience. You know what I mean? You're out there, you're saying what's really happening with what you've done with all that examination. It's remarkable to me to get, I'm 58 years old. So it's funny to me about my mother-in-law was visiting for the holidays and she's, know, she was a water skier when she was in her teens and you know, did all that sort of glamorous sort of neat stuff and beautiful woman and all this sort of stuff. And what was she saying?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (29:26.281)
Mmm.

Gordon Sheppard (29:36.046)
She's like, my goodness, I think I've eaten too much today and I feel fat. And I thought you're 83 and beautiful. how can that still be there? And yet here, what we're hearing you say is, no, no, no, this is just my package. And you're not, don't hear you judging it or feeling bad about it. You took the time to identify it. So you can at least locate yourself when you are wobbly or whatever that is. So that allows, it allows you then, but that's that skillset that you're then muscling, you're getting that muscle over to.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (29:47.593)
That's right.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (29:56.68)
That's right.

Gordon Sheppard (30:03.201)
the leaders that you're helping, the audiences that you're helping, and they can find their own way to self-identify and find their strengths. Is that fair?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (30:10.951)
That's right. And in the book, I give people 60 strategies on how to improve your emotional intelligence depending which skill you're struggling with. So in my case, it's my independence and flexibility. But in some cases, like for those listeners who are people pleasers out there, anyone a people pleaser, that tends to be when you have high, high empathy, but not a lot of assertiveness. And so.

Right? Or when you're a perfectionist, that tends to be when you're on the dark side of self-actualization. It's never enough. You always want bigger, better, more. So it's finding where you are, figuring out. And interesting, in the book, the second, in chapter eight, I talk about once you think what your wobbly bits are, ask five other people. Because the way you see yourself isn't necessarily how others see you.

Gordon Sheppard (31:01.889)
Yeah, right. And it's funny, I was just in with one of those overly empathetic leaders recently in a training setting and that poor fella just was, you know, working all hours because he was having these overly long conversations with people but didn't have the self-awareness, I don't think, that he could use your book where he would be able to go in there and identify himself and then find a way out. And this is what I'm hearing over and over again, every minute by minute that we're talking is you're not just talking about it, you're finding a solution that people can grab onto

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (31:18.877)
Yes.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (31:29.62)
no, yes.

Gordon Sheppard (31:31.308)
right away. So now, 20-year overnight success story. You've got the values and the drive to sort of pull all that together. We've got a timeline that has been very, very rich along with your ability to not only have major moments happen along the way, but also to be a system challenger and a big thinker that I can't wait to talk to you in your 60s and your 70s, right? Like this is really interesting foundationally in terms of how much further you're going to go because you have kind of unlimited runway because of you can hear your vision is so

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (31:50.377)
Hahaha!

Gordon Sheppard (31:59.904)
strong for where you want to go. Strategy, work plan. The third step is people. so people, how would you describe your own attitude? If it's 20 years ago-ish, how would you say, has it been easy sailing or peaks and valleys along the way? How would you describe your own attitude through the 20 years of development?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (32:04.552)
Yes.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (32:16.905)
That's a great question. That's a great question. I think if I were to pick a skill that has made me, you know, successful, that I'm no longer just a solopreneur, that I have a legitimate small business, is because I'm brave. I'm brave to go on stage and share, because I'm a firm believer in order to build trust, you have to risk first. So I have no problems going on stage sharing my wobbly bits so others feel comfortable to share theirs.

I have no problem spending $125,000 on online courses, even though everyone thought I was crazy, because I believed in myself. I'm brave. I take risks. And I believe in my ability. You know, I'm a firm believer that the most wounded are the best healers. I've had a really tough life, Gord.

And I think the reason why people don't feel judged by me, because I hear like horror stories, the things that you only hear in movies, you know, these are my clients stories. And some people have had a really tough life. A lot of people have had a really tough go. And there's no judgment on my part. It's figuring out, unlike my years of therapy where I would talk about the issues and the stories, I never focused on the skills that I was lacking.

So my kind of coaching is, yeah, we'll talk about the story. Tell me about your workplace issue that you're dealing with. But then we right away get into what is the skill that is getting in the way that's getting you in this predicament. Had I known that independence was my weakest area, I would have done something about it years ago.

But I didn't even know I would just go one story after another story after another story. And I never focused on the skills. So my training, whether it's a course, an online course, a training program for organizations, whether it's a keynote on stage, whether I'm doing executive coaching, it's all skills based and we're building habits and habits.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (34:29.979)
I don't know about you, but when New Year's comes, right, you I want to work out more. I want to quit smoking. I want to, you know, eat healthier. But, you know, January 5th, we're saying, well, that was a stupid idea, right? The only reason Weight Watchers or any of those places work is they make you weigh in every week. And we build habits in our coaching and training programs where people get nudged on a regular basis saying, hey,

Have you done the thing that you said you were gonna do in the class? Because Gord, you know, people take the class, it's like a honeymoon, right? Like, that was great, it was a wonderful eight hours or two days. But then they put it on the shelf, the binder, and they forget about it they go back to their day-to-day work where they get distracted. You have to always make that your focus, right? What's your North Star? So.

Gordon Sheppard (35:20.759)
Well, and it sounds like the through line that you said from your own attitude point of view has been the brave part. And then it leads again into this practical getter done thing. Do you know what mean? Like I suffered and I didn't know, I now know, I'm going to help you know, and we're going to get something done. There's a life is short component in what we're talking about here too, right? There's not, not everybody's got 30 years to go sit on that psychotherapist couch, right? Cause they need some results, especially on the business settings that you're in. need.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (35:29.203)
Yep. Yep.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (35:35.39)
Yeah.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (35:45.331)
That's right.

Gordon Sheppard (35:49.624)
They don't have time for, there's not time. And I know, again, I've had that interaction where I've talked to therapists and they're like, well, they're gonna be ready when they're ready. I'm like, yeah, their business needs them right now. And we need to get the situation moving. There must be other people, is there one or two other people in your gang that you like to mention along the way that makes 20 years kind of come together?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (35:53.577)
All right.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (36:00.425)
That's right. That's right.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (36:09.737)
Well, the one thing I'll just before I answer that question is I always say once you know better, you got to do better. So I will present them new information, tell them, you know, the difference between frustration and anger. And they'll be like, wow, I never even realized. And but then now that you know the difference, now you got to be different with that. So that's that's right. You're 100 percent responsible.

Gordon Sheppard (36:29.997)
Now you're responsible for that. That's a gift. Even somebody listening to this podcast right now, wait a second, I heard the difference and then I'm responsible for that. And how do we get that habit into even just taking responsibility? And it sounds like you're able to get that done in the settings that you're in.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (36:43.367)
That's And in the book, I talk about that you are 100 % responsible for your life. You know, as a university professor, people always ask me, you know, if your students don't do well on the exam, what percentage of the responsibilities should be the teachers? And I always say it's 100 % my responsibility. Otherwise, if I say, was 50 % them 50 % me, I'm a victim to the circumstance. If I take 100 % responsibility, I come from a place of resourcefulness.

To answer your question about the key people along my journey, as I said earlier, my beautiful mother was my most profound mentor. She instilled in me emotional wisdom from an early age, reminding me things like when you point a finger at someone else, know, three fingers point back at you, or things like associate with people you want to emulate. And she would constantly...

teach me these valuable lessons which are incorporated into my books. I had, you know, I can't necessarily say, I think I was my own champion. You know, I just believed. You know, she believed in me and I guess that belief in me made me believe in myself.

Gordon Sheppard (38:00.791)
Yeah, that sounds good. So you've got yourself, the braveness that you've demonstrated along the way, whether it was just a smaller voice and then a voice that's grew and then thankfully we can hear the confidence that you have coming into what you're doing now, along with having practiced the vulnerability that you need to be in all those different settings. That's a really remarkable combo to come through because you're not masking up and pretending, you're just being yourself and then delivering on the methods that people can put into action right away. Strategy, work plan, people, operations. So.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (38:29.054)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (38:29.653)
Anytime we have a win, need operational things to occur. Well, operationally, you put some big chunks in place. You learned how to make and produced online courses. And there's an operational component to that. You operationally learned how to write and market a book. You operationally know how to go and speak at conferences around the world and do your thing in terms of what you're doing. There's all these different operational things that you've picked up along the way. Any operational highlights? Like, is it process driven? Any highlights that you'd to point out along the way? Or what do think?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (38:39.922)
Yes.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (38:59.001)
I think for me, I'd say my biggest operational element that helped me succeed is I know how to build curriculum. know, with all my education, you know, two of my degrees are in education. I know how people learn and I know how to make behavior stick. And so I build curriculum, whether that's in our coaching programs where we have a very structured program, whether it's a six, six, six session program or 12 session.

or if it's a year-long training program. It is built with curriculum in mind. I guess that's just, breathe. I build curriculum as easily as I breathe. And I think that would probably be a really good element. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (39:45.976)
And there's a systems element to that. Do you know what I mean? It's not just education curriculum you're thinking. You're thinking actually about organizationally and then you're tying that back. You can hear it into the leaders that you're dealing with no matter what level of the organization that you're dealing with along the way. Plus you picked up all these other skills along the way. And I can't imagine what other skills we're gonna be learning about in 10 years that you'll have picked up along the way operationally as well. Strategy, work plan, people, operations. Finally, there's results. So there's quantitative results and qualitative results. Quantitatively,

Would you say that you've reached thousands, tens of thousands, millions, like how many people have you reached with your message?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (40:17.403)
I a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. But in single handedly, I have trained just in the last seven years alone, seventy five thousand professionals in my workshops. like not even in my keynote. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (40:31.341)
Right? Just in your work, just in your workshops, in small settings, big settings, one-on-ones, you've been on largest stages, you've done all these high impact things. You can see even just brushing by some of the events that you're at, even this year, like your event level, you're leveling up in terms of what you're doing there. So you've reached easily 100,000 plus people or more either directly or not, but then indirectly through these other ways that you're sort of reaching people, whether they're spreading your message or, you know, someone's buying your book for someone else or whatever.

massive impacts that way. I don't mean to say on the numbers side, you're making a living. Do know what I mean? You said your business is scaled up to a level where you've got it. You said it's a business now. I don't mean to, I'm not trying to dig into that part, but there's some dollars involved. There's a number of events per year or more. Like would you say your opportunities are growing every year as well? Is it that kind of thing?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (41:00.689)
Yes.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (41:05.001)
Yes. Yeah.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (41:19.737)
yeah, yeah, the stages get bigger, the audiences get bigger, the clients get bigger. And interestingly, some of my biggest clients, which obviously I can't share all of them, but you can check out my website to see sort of our client list, but some of them don't even allow me to share publicly because they're such big clients, they don't want their names publicized. Yes, it's very deep, it's very deep work. yeah, yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (41:40.301)
Well, and I think maybe that's a reflection also of the nature of your work, perhaps as well. So your work is personal work. so, but again, you would have, what's neat is he said, well, check out the website and you would see where emotional impact gets well utilized. And those are smart leadership teams if they're able to round out in that way.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (41:56.105)
And think about, you said it earlier, and I apologize. I don't know if you can hear Cosmo, my dog in the background, squeaking his toy, but he just decided to come on to the podcast to make sure he's seen. But the other thing you've mentioned, engineering. A lot of our clients are in the STEM, science, tech, engineering, math, right? People that have incredible technical skills.

Gordon Sheppard (42:02.005)
It's okay.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (42:21.257)
but not necessarily good bedside manners, right? Emotional and social skills. Yes. Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (42:26.039)
Well, and I'm seeing that also in the technology space, certainly in Alberta, where I've spent a bunch of time, genius people not able to necessarily convey what they're trying to convey and the emotions not explored. And so again, you're creating those opportunities in the STEM space, love it. And again, it sounds like you'll be reaching at any part, people entering, people at the highest levels of whatever they're doing to run their organization. So strategy, work plan, people, operation, results, heard the quantitative thing.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (42:36.425)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (42:54.029)
20 year overnight success story, maybe 30, maybe 35. How does it feel to sort of take a moment to go, wow, that's the win. How does it feel to get this far?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (42:57.01)
Yeah.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (43:06.003)
Fulfilled. You know, a lot of people when they ask, you know, how does it feel, people say good. Well, good is not a feeling. So I want to in case anyone was thinking I was going to answer with the word good, good is not a feeling. I feel fulfilled. I feel like I am living my purpose and why I was put on this planet. think, you know.

Growing up having a tough life, I used to be upset about it and now I think it's one of my greatest gifts because I understand what real pain feels like. I understand, growing up I was told I was too emotional. Well, guess what? I'm making a frigging living out of it now. So helping people feel seen and safe in expressing their emotions at work is one of the intangible.

results that this job provides me, shifting workplace cultures to become more emotionally aware and emotionally sensitive to cultural differences, generational differences, and changing the narrative around leadership, right? I think that whole command and control doesn't work in this modern day, you know, where we were supposed to come in and be stoic and unflappable and never let them see you sweat, doesn't work. And we need, people want

to talk about emotions that doesn't necessarily, not all people, but certainly the younger generation wants to talk about it more than the older generation. And the older generation that is leading that younger generation need to get comfortable. That doesn't mean, you get comfortable getting uncomfortable. It doesn't mean you have to be anyone's emotional therapist, but you do need to be brave enough to ask these three questions. What are you feeling? What is that feeling telling you about you?

others and the situation and how can I support you. That's it. And then once people feel safe and seen and valued, that's going to impact their dedication and commitment to their work. And, you know, it's not just about bigger paychecks. It's an interesting I just read an article saying that the younger generation, 62 % want face to face feedback. But yet

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (45:17.737)
80 % of people right now are cowering around having a difficult conversation at work with anyone. So, you know, we need to, how can we create incredible workplaces when we can't even talk to each other? So it's so much more about ROI, it's more about ROR, right? Return on relationships, relationships with yourself, relationship with others, when people feel understood.

Productivity improves, collaboration improves, and innovation thrives. So we've got to make people feel seen and understood and valued.

Gordon Sheppard (45:54.51)
I think we've gone over our 15 minutes with you. Do you know what mean? And we're just getting, it's just, and I think you know this very intentionally. It's sort of, you you're trying to deliver value and every minute you get a chance to speak. And that's just so lucky for the audience that's, and me directly. Funny enough, I'm going to have to go back and replay the one, two, three that you just gave me there. Cause that's really, really valuable. So you feel fulfilled at the end of all that you've got this 20 year.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (45:56.739)
you

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (46:15.005)
Yeah. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (46:19.658)
overnight success story, which is gonna, it's actually gonna go a lot longer, because you've got a lot of runway. You might even be, you might be mid career or less right now from what I'm hearing for how far you can take this. Absolutely, and a lot more impact to have. And so the one thing I'll just leave behind is, do you have a couple sentences for leaders that you like to leave behind for leaders that are getting into learning about emotional intelligence? Just a couple things to take us out.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (46:24.207)
yeah. yeah.

Yeah, I got lots more to do and lots I want to have a lot more impact. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (46:47.406)
that if you had a chance to say, know, here's a few things that I want you to remember to dig into and how you can use that to improve your own leadership.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (46:56.987)
I think the first thing is really start with some self-reflection and examine your strengths and areas for development. You know, I think it's taking a good honest look in the mirror and really figuring out what your emotional makeup is. You know, am I aware of how I feel in a moment? Do I stand up for myself? You know, can I see things from other people's perspectives? And then the other thing I want leaders to do is to ask yourself

How do people feel in my presence? You know, when you're in a good mood, I'm sure people feel great. But what happens when you're stressed? Do people feel comfortable when you're stressed? Do they feel okay to challenge your ideas when you're stressed? Do they tiptoe around you and play Kate because they're worried about how you might, the wrath?

that might come out. So I think it's really being aware, zooming out, being the observer of ourselves and seeing ourselves from above. And one of my clients gave me this idea. I wish I could say I came up with it. But on his garage door, before he leaves the house, he puts this sticky note on his garage door and it asks, how am I showing up today? My add on to that is

Put it on the other side of the garage door when you come home, after you've depleted your energy from all the people you worked with all day long, to the people you love, how are you showing up to them, to your daughter, to your partner, to your dog? How are you showing up? And I think if we could zoom out and see that we all leave an emotional wake like a boat leaves a wake.

You know, what's my emotional makeup? What's my default? What's my baseline? What are my wobbly bits that I need to work on? Zoom out. Really be the observer of yourself. Do what I did when you made a mistake. Own it, right? Because we're not perfect. We're human and that's okay, but own your mistakes. Those are things.

Gordon Sheppard (49:11.17)
And I can hear in there, the sticky note needs to go on both sides of the garage door, if you want to be a better leader. And then people are going to have to get a transcript of this. And it's your next book if they took the transcript out of here. But the big thing is they do need to, if they have to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that?

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (49:23.493)
There you go. There you go.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (49:29.993)
So they can reach me at carolyn at carolynstern.com if they want to email me directly. I have two websites, one carolynstern.com, which is my speaking page and my thought leadership and EI experience, which is our corporate training where we do coaching, retreats, assessments. People online might be interested in taking an EQ assessment. I know for me,

25 years ago, it changed my life. On the outside, I thought I had it all together, but inside I had a lot of wobbly bits that I need to work on. And 25 years later, I have to tell you that my EQ has gone up, hopefully. Thank God. I learned a few things along the way.

Gordon Sheppard (50:11.576)
You learned a few things in there. And so again, we've learned a ton. I want to say thank you so much for coming on the show here today, sharing so generously. And then again, even at the end here, we know where to get some answers. And that's just a real, real gift that you're doing over and over again. Carolyn, thank you so much for being on the show.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (50:24.723)
Yes.

Carolyn Stern - EI Experience (50:30.473)
my pleasure. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Great conversation.