EW 044 – How To Write Your First Business Book – Winning with Karley Cunningham, CEO of Big Bold Brand

Gordon Sheppard (00:00.824)
Karley, welcome to the show.

Karley (00:03.178)
Thanks, Gordon. I'm very excited to be here with you and excited to dive in.

Gordon Sheppard (00:07.126)
Well, we're lucky to have you here because you are a high impact person in so many different areas for so many leaders in the work that you do directly. You're a high level athlete from what I've learned as well. And so that's another area where you draw inspiration from, know, you're all kinds of different things and we're to learn a whole bunch about them here today. But for people that haven't met you yet, how would you describe yourself if you're at a party or that kind of thing?

Karley (00:34.784)
Oh, geez, how would I describe myself? Well, I'll use a word that other folks use, which is intense. And I'm okay with that. I am passionate about a lot of things. And I know the word passionate's lobbied around a lot, but I love being an entrepreneur. I love supporting entrepreneurs. I am a lifelong athlete, passionate about mountain biking and trail running and hiking. And I think part of the intensity comes along with my friends calling me

Perhaps a little bit crazy as I go do things like, you know, throw myself into the middle of the Grand Canyon to see if I can get myself out, tackle trail adventures. was playing with the idea on the weekend of doing my first 50 K ultra race. I've done distances up around 35, 40 K, but 50 seems like that next big barrier of, you know, needing to dig in mentally and physically. So we'll see. We'll see if I do it next year.

Gordon Sheppard (01:30.87)
And help me out here because intense folds into your work. Describe the work that you do.

Karley (01:34.592)
Yes. The work that I do is balanced between strategy and brand and execution. helping companies develop a great brand is my passion. when I see I'm throwing that word around again, but how I see brand is really an equation. So reputation times exposure equals your brand.

It's so much more than your logos, fonts and colors. And that's, that's even a little hard for me to say is coming from a graphic design background because there, is such depth to that, but that is only one component of building your reputation, being recognized, being memorable. There's so much more that goes into it. So that's, that's been my zone of genius. I've done a research project on it, but also into that comes strategy. And I love folks figuring out their business strategy.

or removing the roadblock to how, tactical thing might be getting in the way and lifting them above so they can see the whole picture and we can figure out a strategic solution to get them rolling forward.

Gordon Sheppard (02:37.646)
Well, and how lucky, I know one of the guests, one of my favorite guests on the show, Chris Vassilio, is someone that you've actually worked with. So when we think about, know, if people need to learn about someone who has an unbreakable mindset, certainly was what he talked about, rememberably on the podcast episode that he did here, but then he's been influenced by you in the background around brand and sort of his own strategy and some of that work, because he's worked with you directly. So we've got kind of proof in the pudding in a sense of people need to cross-reference some things you do, and I'm sure you could.

Karley (02:41.883)
Mm-hmm. I have.

Karley (02:48.478)
Yes.

Karley (02:56.287)
truth?

Karley (03:02.846)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (03:05.346)
roll out your client list for the people that need to know and we'll make sure we get your contact details in there as well. Part of pre-interviewing you was to ask you this basic question of saying, know, if you had to describe one of your biggest wins in your business in the last couple of years, what would it be and how would you describe it?

Karley (03:11.049)
Happy to share.

Karley (03:22.469)
It would be getting the first ugly draft of my book manuscript written. It's a business book. It's my first ever business book. And to be candid, I didn't think I would ever get that book out of my head. many of my peers and coaches are like, Karley, there's, there's at least one book in your head. And while I believe that, and I know a lot of folks talk about writer's block, but beyond that for me, recently diagnosed as ADHD.

at the young age of 50. So that's been a whole reckoning of, so that's why I, you know, am not great at that. Or that's why that has been so challenging for me. And the cursor has felt like kryptonite for me. And so I have all these big ideas and I sit down and I'm so excited to write a helpful, actionable blog article or write a script for a video. And then that little

thing shows up on my screen and it feels like it saps me of my energy and my inspiration and then I just get stuck and I walk away. So getting the book out of my head that that was her number one.

Gordon Sheppard (04:34.958)
Congratulations. mean, that is a, it's a massive win. And I'm so glad that you're on here because we're to get a chance to sort of dig into what it is. And so many leaders that listen to this show either have a book in their head that they're trying to get out. And I'm hoping they're going to get inspired by your journey. and also I've had a chance to write my own book. I wrote a book called the meeting leadership solution. It allowed me to get my thoughts down for, helping people, you know, a 10 step system around helping people have better meetings. But that took me 30,000 words.

Karley (04:35.817)
Thank you.

Karley (04:47.849)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (05:04.92)
took me six months, probably three months longer than I should have. And my dilemma, I know as an author was perfectionism. I was just sort of crushing myself with writing and editing at the same time. It was a brutal, brutal thing. I mean, the result was good and I've gone on to do workshops from that. And it got me, I really appreciated getting the thoughts down in one place. So that's, I maybe can fold in a little bit of my, reflect my own experience, but this was your experience, your win is getting that first ugly draft out and it actually occurred.

Karley (05:06.846)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (05:14.013)
Yes.

Karley (05:25.927)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (05:35.052)
I always jump in at this point in a conversation to say, well, good, let's use the anatomy of a win to break this down a little bit. What was the strategy, work plan, people, operations, and results behind getting your big ugly draft kind of out the door? What was the strategy, vision, mission, goals, values for actually getting this book project done in the first place?

Karley (05:50.035)
Mm-hmm.

Amazing question. And you're playing right in the work that I do with my clients. So it's fun to have, it flipped on it flipped at me. And I now on the interviewer seat, I'll start with purpose and my purpose is to fuel entrepreneurial fire and help small to midsize businesses accelerate their growth, their success and their impact. So when the book idea. Crystallized for me, which was at a conference.

it all kind of just clicked. was that lightning strike moment. I knew that I needed to write a book on that. And I was like, just set aside the how, but now I have the drive to do it and it aligns with my purpose. Values for me, definitely, wow, it's been a long time since I've thought about my values in the context of me. I usually talk about them in the context of my book. Well, I think one of my,

big values is gratitude and shared gratitude. So I'll tangent for a second. When I'm prospecting with a possible client, with a possible project, I'm always listening for them expressing gratitude and ensuring I'm expressing gratitude. So thank you for your time meeting with me, even if they're not a right fit. They took time out of their day to have a conversation with me when they could have had it with, I don't know how many other different trusted advisors. And

I'm looking for that reciprocation of gratitude because that's an indication that I'm going to be working with an aligned client. So on the gratitude lens, it's being grateful that I had that lightning strike experience and being able to take that and inspire others and pass that pay it forward. That was something a big value that was came from one of my cycling coaches who coached me for free. And he said, my only charge is pay it forward somehow, some way.

Gordon Sheppard (07:46.607)
Holy, so here we are and we got gratitude, pay it forward, a lightning strike, right? Sometimes there's strategy, I'm gonna get this thing done, but in fact, the lightning strike was the impetus, it sounds like, to kind of get this moving, regardless of the how, which was that blinking cursor that in the past has been a barrier, right? So you sort of said, well, we've got to get this kind of thing. good, that gives us a feel for the strategy. And the pay it forward thing is a valuable thing, funny enough, thematically running through the leaders that are on this show.

Karley (07:58.976)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (08:02.977)
Yeah. Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (08:15.17)
Good to have you here for that point of view for sure. Anytime we have a strategy, we need a work plan. So we actually have to get to the how. So from lightning strike, what month, day, year, moment did that, was that the lightning strike? Help me out. And then how long did it take from that moment to actually get your big ugly draft out the

Karley (08:19.245)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Karley (08:31.743)
Okay, let me let me go back. So the summit, funny enough, how all these things serendipitously come together, I was invited to be a panelist at the at Indie Books International's Marketing with a Book Summit. So I wasn't there. I was curious. I was like, okay, how do you guys do this? Could you be my publisher? You know, but that wasn't the primary reason I was there. I was there to support one of my friends who is the founder of Indie Books, and he had asked me to sit on a panel. I said, of course, Henry, I'll be there.

And so I just sat in on the sessions, open-minded and curious. And that's when the lightning strike happened, when during one of the sessions. And so I came back, I had actually sat down, I woke up, I don't know what the conference on day two, and I had all these ideas for books I could write. I, that's new for me is okay. Thinking about, it's not just one book. could be multiple books. So I clearly left inspired and I was chatting with one of my mastermind partners, probably.

within a month of that. And we were building at our annual plan. She goes, okay, so you told me all about the book so much. She goes, why aren't you writing the book right now? I'm like, well, I have the research study that I still need to publish and I have this and I have that. And I bantering around excuses and really it was avoidance. And she goes, I have some, I think you need to do it. And I'm like, no, that's it'll kill me. Like having to deal with that cursor will just deflate everything I have going momentum wise right now. And she goes, I think you need to meet someone I know. And so she introduced me to Betsy Tong.

And so I booked a meeting with Betsy, not really knowing what Betsy was about or what she did, or I was just, I was just trusting in my mastermind partner. And I was like, okay, I'll roll with it. And the night before the meeting, I thought out of that honor, I should probably do some research on who Betsy is. And I found her sub stack page, which led me to her book, her latest book called, um, the edge, your brain on AI, which she had wrote in 72 hours. And I was like,

Okay, how quality can a book be if you wrote it in 72 hours? Because ever the pessimist. And so I bought the book. I started reading the book and I was like, this is impressive. Like well thought out, Betsy's whip smart. and so what I found out through the process of the next 48 hours, how she wrote that book was with her own process that she established, which is an AI supported.

Karley (10:57.907)
book writing process, which almost, I'll say almost, almost eliminates the need for that dealing with that cursor. because a lot of it is, is having a setting up AI in an aligned way to interview you and help you think through and give you the first ugly draft of say the chapters, give you the first ugly draft of an expanded, who is my ideal reader. then

for me, I can work off an ugly first draft really quickly. So it was throwing those at me, so I wasn't dealing with the blank page and that blinking cursor.

Gordon Sheppard (11:35.202)
Interesting, and I'm really glad that you're bringing up this process because it's controversial at this point, right? Old school is going to say, wait a second, no, you got to sit down and build it all out yourself. The AI inputs are arguable around IP and originality in terms of what that kind of looks like. And yet we know that anyone who's touched AI, it's accelerating all kinds of processes. And it's funny, I know my own resistance in AI, whether it's developing.

Karley (11:41.043)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (11:52.563)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (12:01.728)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (12:02.767)
research, like I think if you're not using AI to do primary research these days, that's foolish. It doesn't make any sense to not be using that to scrape way faster than you ever possibly could, except I've done degrees. Like I know what it's like to sit in those book stacks from decades ago and, and do that thing. And so as we transition into this moment, now we're saying, wait a second, we can crank a book out in three days. Someone can, or, know, and you, don't know how long it took you. We'll ask you about that in just a second. But, so I'll get into that. So I just, but I mean to frame this in this AI thing, because I think.

Karley (12:07.232)
100%.

Karley (12:12.128)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (12:16.863)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (12:24.476)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Gordon Sheppard (12:32.589)
this process is valuable for leaders to be aware of in their own, as they're about to get into their own book writing world. And then how would you say, how would you describe that then from the origin, let's just deal with the originality thing here. So you know, you've got this process, you've got AI assistance to get things like chapter headers out. You were mentioning possibly research or whatever those things are. How do you sort of justify that in a sense to know that it's your own is a question.

Karley (12:44.574)
Yeah, absolutely. Let's dig in.

Karley (12:50.197)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (13:03.932)
Well, I can only speak for my book. It is based on my methodology. I think more the second or workbook piece will be based tighter on it because there was an inspired idea and new concept which popped out, which is what that lightning strike was in the summit. But essentially, was what I've been working off of is feeding AI all of my own content.

And one of the ways to get into the chapters, which is a really cool piece and I don't, I want to be careful to honor that Betsy has IP in this book writing process, but is very much a Q and A process of forming questions and then you answering those questions. And for me, it's all based on my IP and my experience with clients and my case studies that I've created and spent time researching and tracking.

So I would say if I've gone out for research, it's around, give me a quote that aligns with this chapter, or I'm looking for an example of a business story, you know, that I could leverage as an example. So I'm not out there taking and using other people's research. And even if you are, you can cite it. But for me, it's really about I had the body of work behind me. It was getting it all.

out in the form of a book because I've already built my IP to be licensable for my core method. So I was I will say I'm lucky.

Gordon Sheppard (14:37.273)
Thanks, thanks. Yeah, thanks very much for jumping in there with that. Cause I think that's something I just wanted to get out of the way. And cause I'm actually really interested in the process, but I think this thing of how much of it is my own, how much of it was created and was it created from, I don't know, million sources or whatever those things are. Of course, we in the past have gone to articles and cited articles and we have gone and gathered ideas. It's just that this is so much more rapid. Like that's all in terms of certain parts of the work. I guess it's way faster.

Karley (15:02.943)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (15:05.529)
for doing things and then that Q &A thing, funny enough, being in the executive coaching space myself, I ran into someone recently who's like, well, I just go to chat GPT and it's now my coach. And I'm like, wow. So that's like the uses of AI and how do we use it to do it. But in meantime, you've got the bulk of your work is done. You know, it's all kind of floating around in your head. You've got your lightning strikes happening in the conferences, these ideas, but you found that methodology through this wonderful person who developed this AI methodology for you to kind of get it out there and get it moving.

Karley (15:16.084)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Karley (15:29.12)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (15:34.81)
That's terrific. And so if we talk about strategy, work plan, then we got into actually process a little bit into how this goes, the third step in the anatomy of one is always the people that are involved. And I think we've heard about you and your nemesis, the cursor, in terms of your attitude towards the writing process. And yet, you've been doing the work. And so it's funny about methodology. Like sit down and type, talk.

Karley (15:47.004)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (16:01.293)
which, you know, with these different ways that we have for methodology to kind of get into things, how would you describe your attitude towards writing before you kind of found this how, and then afterwards, if you had to describe your attitude, the before and after.

Karley (16:14.898)
My attitude before avoid it like the plague. I mean, dig into my my website and my blog creating content is is very, hard for me. I'm and for those of you because I I'm going to again shift. I'm going to take a little turn into a cul-de-sac for a moment as someone who is neurodiverse and and. You know, integrating myself into what is what exactly does that mean? What are.

What are the things that might be getting in the way that I don't know we're getting in the way? There's a piece of it that some of us have, which is called rejection sensitivity dysphoria. putting, it's funny, I can get on a stage and talk. So talking is not an issue for me, as I'm sure you figured out this far into this podcast. So for me being in front of people and seeing their reaction and having that human interaction and dialogue, easy peasy.

put me in a room with just the video camera and I'm lacking that sense of human interaction. Put me on a stage, I'm good to go. I've been on a stage since I was five years old. So that's a very comfortable place for me. But putting something out there and letting it go into the ether and that voice in the back of my head that comes from that rejection sensitivity is like, what are they gonna say?

Do I, it's imposter syndrome. Do I, do I know enough? Am I, am I going to get called a fake? Am I, how are people going to react? And you know, for the most part, when I talked about my book and when I've posted about it so far on social media, there, I definitely have what I would call a cheering squad around me, but it's still, that's my next hurdle to get over it so I can start promoting that this book is coming. So I mean, I'd even need to put on my LinkedIn page. And now that I have the concrete piece of the manuscript is,

author of the upcoming book, dot, dot. So.

Gordon Sheppard (18:12.601)
This is such a great moment to catch you in your process. Do you know what mean? And thank you for being open about, think the rejection thing, I don't know anybody that doesn't have that to some degree, but you articulated it really, really well. And isn't that a big part of any writing process and that thing of putting yourself out there? Here's my big idea. I was testing something recently and I was in a meeting with somebody. said, here's my cool thing. He goes, we already do that. I'm like, wow. And I just sort of, I shrunk and I had that moment with me. was like, but this is a

Karley (18:15.936)
Thank you.

Gordon Sheppard (18:42.605)
And he was like, no, and here's how, and then I had to switch. was getting old enough now where I switched it into, okay, okay. And so my stomach's turning, but I was like, how do you, how did you do it? And then it's like, if we do this, this and this, I was like, okay. Now I can bring that actually into what I'm doing. He's like, yeah, other people could probably use it. They're not as dorky as we are in terms of making it, making it important. But so that was an interesting moment for me, a bit about that same moment of putting it out there. And I can tell you the many years when I suffered from my own perfectionism, if I'm going to call it that, of not putting things out there.

Karley (19:06.047)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (19:10.378)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (19:12.387)
just being comfortable sitting in the office, writing things or doing things and thinking I'm wonderful. And then getting over that now to the point where my reps are way up to be out there doing it. But what I'm hearing from you is you had this thing of like, you didn't want to, you you avoid it like the plague. You're self-aware, you've done obviously a lot of deep work to be able to articulate that thing that quickly. You're, you know, becoming aware of this neurodiversity reality in your own world and yet.

you were still able to go forward. Cause there's that before part and then there's the after part. Cause once you get the how, how did your attitude again, we know what it was before. How was the attitude once you got the how? You met this person, you found the methodology. How would you describe your attitude then?

Karley (19:42.026)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (19:50.112)
Mm-hmm.

the attitude is, is, is a combination of things. and I want to pay tribute where tributes do, how it feels though, is, surprisingly fun, which we can, if we draw back to values, one of our values for the business, which I believe as well is just because the work we do is serious, doesn't mean we can't have fun. And so writing the book has become fun, finding out my own ideas and seeing, going back and reading that first draft.

and seeing where the gaps are and putting myself in the reader's shoes and going, Ooh, hold on a minute. There's, there's a hole there. there's a famous quote and I'm going to absolutely butcher it, but it, it, it's along the lines of I write so that I know what I think. And it's a longer quote than that. but that's really part of the process. So it's, it's fun to go, wow, I did that. And it's been surprising. So there is a lot of joy and fun in it for me.

And knowing that I'm supported, so I touched on that earlier, knowing that I had a coach who was open to, how can I support you? What do you need as an entrepreneur? What do you need as a neurodiverse individual? Because it's not, you know, something that to my knowledge that she's revealed anything that anyone else she's coached. So, but she was so open to, okay, I didn't give it to you in a way that works for you.

in the first iteration, I will jump on a call with you anytime to help figure out what works for you. And I've been supported by many amazing coaches, but not in that way before. So that was really amazing. And, also knowing that there's a cheering squad around me and so much of what I do, so much of how I do business and build my business as an entrepreneur is taking lessons from sports.

Karley (21:48.465)
and thinking about, what's gonna get me through the editing now? The editing feels like the uphill climb. So I expected the getting the first manuscript draft out to be the uphill climb. was work, no question, but it was rolling hills. And now I've hit that first steep incline with a ton of elevation. And so I'm working on one, having the courage to put it out there.

on a sub stack or maybe a LinkedIn newsletter and share the journey just like I'm doing with you. So this is a great kickoff to that. So thank you, Gordon. and in sport, whether it be when I was doing riding as a, as a team member for, the only all women's, national cycling team for mountain biking, the fly girls.

and knowing that when you come through the feed zone and somewhere out in the exciting parts of the courses, your friends and your team members are gonna be out there cheering for you. And that's a big boost. When I was doing solo ultra distance on my mountain bike or in trails, know, the one seven, what did I do? I did the BC bike race, which was seven days, minimum 50 K 350 kilometers over the week.

You know, my wife had fun reliving her days as a rally car driver and driving up the fire roads to try and track me. And she'd be in these random places. And it was like this, it was like a video game power up. It's like, yes, there's, know. And so that for me in any long project or journey is like, who is your support team? Who's your crew? Who's your cheering squad? So that's been a really fun, new application of things I've learned from sport to this process.

Gordon Sheppard (23:28.687)
There's so many good moments that you've just described because what you just did was you paved the road for somebody else that wants to get their big ugly draft out the door. Here's my internal objections. Here's my inspiration. Here's my cheering squad. Here's the right people around me that I assembled. Here's my ability to go through my own self-awareness to get into the mindset that it's going to take. And now what's fun,

Karley (23:37.8)
Mm-hmm. I hope so.

Gordon Sheppard (23:54.897)
And I, to the fun word, I don't hear a lot of writers talk about fun, right? Right? Right? When we're talking about the blinking cursor or whatever. And now you've got this methodology where it sounds like it's just now work. Like I have no doubt that you're going to finish, for example, like the way you're describing it. There's no doubt that you're, you know, it's big, ugly draft, but we're months away from whatever that is being the thing that you want it to be. And then thank you so much for that articulation around, I write to know what I know. Again, again, I'm,

Karley (23:58.529)
Right? I didn't think it would ever come out of my mouth.

Karley (24:08.318)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karley (24:16.17)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (24:23.676)
know what I think. That's okay. Yeah, but I-

Gordon Sheppard (24:24.802)
I'm butchering your butchering because having been through the process, what the difference was is when I would then do a workshop from that material, because it was second nature because I had spent the time to do the critical thinking and to put that down and do the wordsmithing around it, that made a huge, huge difference. so congratulations on that as well. So again, these are all things that I'm so thrilled to have you here for because I think leaders...

Karley (24:37.685)
Yes.

Karley (24:46.528)
Thank you.

Gordon Sheppard (24:51.312)
are thinking about writing their own book, whatever that is, a memoir or something, and we're hearing process here that I think they can grab on to, to be able to be inspired themselves to get their own thing out the door. So I said strategy, work plan, people, we've described a whole bunch of that very, very well. Operationally, we touched on it a little bit because there's an AI component, but I'm really interested now operationally in the brass tacks. So take me through, what is it? Do you type something in? Do you talk?

Karley (25:01.61)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (25:08.064)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (25:19.46)
Do you, you said there's this question and answer prompt working with the AI. Like describe the operational component of actually pulling it together.

Karley (25:26.974)
Yeah, I think one of the ones I haven't mentioned is using AI as a thinking partner. And that's one of Betsy's concepts is it's not artificial intelligence, it's co-intelligence. So using it to help you critically think, putting an idea back to it and saying, okay, I'm thinking about metaphorically describing it as this way or this way. Now, and the prompts are so key and critical and knowing

who your ideal reader is. That was a step early on in the book. Defining that, that was a tough point for me. That was a little punchy hill climb for me because I'm so used to defining my clients as a team. And Betsy, kudos to her. She just kept pushing me. as I do in a race when I'm like, don't, this hurts. don't like, why don't I quit? She would push me and I was like, okay, fine. You're my coach. I will honor my coach. And that's the culture I come from as an athlete. Yes, coach.

and so I would sit down and I would hammer it out again. And so when I was coming to the editing and going, you know, this metaphor, that metaphor, I would say, now I want you to embody, my ideal reader. named the ideal reader and I said, I need you to embody Alex. And I picked the name Alex because my ideal clients are, are, you know, they can be male or female, or they can be non-binary. So I wanted to get like, I really wanted to honor who I'm building this for.

and it was less around demographics, more around psychographics. And so what would Alex think of these two metaphors and rate them on a scale of one to 10 and tell me why you rated them that way. And that again, prompt learn from Betsy, really important in the way that chat GPT responded to me. And sometimes it would be like, these are both great ideas. Cause

If you do the research on AI, it's not designed to discourage you. It's designed to encourage you so you keep using it. And so I would say, okay, I don't want you to placate me. I don't want you, I don't need you to be my cheering squad. I need like honesty right now. Which of these be a critic. And it would come back and tell me, well, if I was in Alex's shoes, this is a seven and this isn't a nine and here's why.

Karley (27:46.876)
And so I would play with it and sometimes I would say, okay, great. I'm not really satisfied with either of metaphors. Give me three more. And then we bounce it back and forth like a game of pong.

Gordon Sheppard (27:57.871)
Wonderful. That piece of who's the reader, which I'm going to say, and in business it's who's your customer and you know, whatever in acting it's who's your character. Like these moments that we, often it's such a fundamental. And I'm so glad to hear that be emphasized, by this wonderful coach that you've had to help you through to say, who's that person? So then you know who you're writing to all the time. It's one thing to say Stephen King really understands his readers. but then he's done, he's got his reps in right over that.

Karley (28:05.43)
Yes.

Gordon Sheppard (28:27.674)
whatever, five, six decades that he's been doing things. And it wasn't even easy for him in early days as he sort of went through his own process. There's a wonderful book, by the way, if you get a chance, Stephen King on writing. Fantastic, because he talks about his process in terms of what that was like. in early days, was Carrie, the manuscript for Carrie, put it in the trash, his wife pulled it out of the trash. Right? Anyway, just so good.

Karley (28:27.733)
Yes, yes.

Karley (28:38.631)
Okay. I was a Stephen King fan.

Karley (28:49.589)
didn't know that story. I love those stories, right? We don't know behind someone's success how many times they wanted to give up. We don't know how many times they tore it up or had their, I remember one of my pieces of art in high school that ended up in a gallery as I had it tensed. I had the tension on and my mom pulled it out of my hands. And it was just, as me, I chose something really difficult. I wanna hit on something that's really important because...

you hit on a word that I almost changed my, it reminded me that yes, I need to do that. Just in aspects of getting back into editing the book, I've had a few weeks off and now I've gotten a little bit lax about how many chapters am I going to edit a week? And, and that discipline, it's the discipline to put in the reps. And again, coming from sport. So I want to get the quote on my, on my phone, replace my screen as it is right now that says, put in the reps.

because that's what it's about. As an athlete, you have to put in the reps, whether it be at the gym. Well, it's more than at the gym. When you think about running a marathon, most people are like, okay, I gotta go running. Okay, but what are you doing to better your diet? What are those improvement reps? What are you doing in the work at the gym? What are those reps? What are you doing in your maintenance work and the stretching work? So it's not just about writing the book. It's about starting to promote the book as soon as possible so that when it goes live,

you're able to achieve the things that you want to achieve with it, that you have the audience already built. So putting in the reps, I cannot enforce the importance of that. And let's go back to process. Writing for me, when did I write? I got up at 4.35 o'clock every morning to get the work done beyond the workday because otherwise it wasn't gonna get done.

Gordon Sheppard (30:36.752)
And you set aside the time in those earlier parts too. If we had the nine hour interview, we would dig into all the good stuff. But we've gotten some insights into, again, the strategy, the work plan, the people, the operational side. This is super valuable. Finally, the fifth step in the anatomy of a win is the results. What are the qualitative and quantitative results? Quantitatively, you have a big ugly draft. It's got X number of words, X number of pages, whatever you want to describe. There's a quantitative something.

Karley (30:43.073)
You

Karley (30:47.393)
Great.

Karley (31:01.685)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Gordon Sheppard (31:03.62)
I don't know you can hold it in your hand. There's a thing called Makerspace at the Edmonton Public Library where I went two years ago. They had this crazy photocopier, looked like it anyway, that could pump out a six by nine bound copy of your book. And it was so fun to go hold an early copy before I went, in my case, to the self-published Amazon process down the road. So quantitative is that. So any other quantitative or qualitative results. And qualitative could be how does it feel, what that kind of impact, any quantitative qualitative results that you'd like to point out.

Karley (31:14.26)
Amazing.

Mm-hmm.

Karley (31:21.781)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (31:28.225)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (31:33.316)
for this win.

Karley (31:33.405)
I would say quantitative, I need to go and do it, but there are people who have said, yes, sign me up, I wanna follow your journey. So I now have the startings of that audience, that cheering squad, and that's really important, and hopefully seeing that grow. confidence and certitude.

So I purposely use the word certitude because that is part of the book. just introducing a little bit of a teaser is and that was part of the lightning strike moment started with the word certainty. And I was like, wow, OK, that's really amazing. So how it started, Marc LeBlanc, who was giving the talk at the time, he said, as a side note, we were drawing a diagram and he said, you know, it's really interesting. He said most.

business owners, what they really want is they want more certainty. He goes, but very few sell it. And I looked down at my page and my core method is called the surefire method. And I'll use my outside voice because my inside voice was very much more expressive, but it was like, holy cow, I sell certainty.

And I've been doing that for over 10 years because surefire is a synonym for certainty. Well, digging into the word, because I'm a word nerd, certainty came up the word certitude. And I was like, Hmm, that's an interesting word. Never seen that before. And for me, just the sense and feeling, like when you say the word gravitas, it has a feeling and certitude has that same grounded sense to it. So I looked up, you know, my favorite tool, AI.

Okay, tell me what the difference between certainty and certitude is. And they are an external and internal pairing. So certainty is the signals from the outside world or you're receiving signals from the outside world that are confirming that your theory is right or that you've built the right thing or whatever it is is working. Well, we've blended that with that. I have a sense of certainty. That is actually certitude and that is the

Karley (33:50.562)
confidence in your body of work, in your knowledge, in your research, in the way you approach something. So for me, it's about certainty and certitude and the Surefire Method.

Gordon Sheppard (34:07.076)
Well, that's a great way to put a bow on it. Cause now what we've seen is really a summary of your methodology arriving in a guiding principle that's very tip of the iceberg for something that I'm sure runs very deep and what you've done with your clients for many, many years. The book, the big ugly draft process has allowed you to get again, the certitude and all the things that go along with it along the way. That's just fantastic. If you just before we get out of here, if you had to give one piece of advice,

Karley (34:09.931)
Thank

Gordon Sheppard (34:36.634)
to another writer, what would that piece of advice be?

Karley (34:38.858)
Hmm.

Karley (34:43.797)
Don't assume that the how is with a keyboard. We're all built differently and you might use the keyboard 50 % of the time. You might use your phone to transcribe your book. You might have someone interview you. There are so many ways today, human assisted and technology assisted and whether you hire a coach or don't hire a coach is figuring out the how that works for you and go back to a big project and go, well, how did I get through that?

Or go back to a big life challenge. For me, I'm always going back to, well, how did I make it through the Grand Canyon? Well, I went and looked at the certainty of information that I could get. Am I going to melt on the way up? It was 105 degrees. How much water do I need to get? And getting all the certainty things that would, and also knowing what signals were coming back at me of whether I was succeeding. Have I been out here too long? Am I dehydrating, et cetera, et cetera? And then knowing.

I had done other ultra adventures and I was confident in my own knowledge and skills and had that sense of certitude plus a plan.

Gordon Sheppard (35:49.714)
There are many ways to skin a cat, is what I'm hearing somewhere in there, and you've been able to find the one that works for you in this wonderful day and age when we have all these great tools at our disposal. I cannot get out of here without a big shout out for Betsy. You said Betsy, so please can you just describe, it didn't have to be a long description, but Betsy and her contact information so people know. Can you mention that please?

Karley (35:52.361)
Mm-hmm.

Karley (36:05.301)
Right?

Karley (36:11.477)
Yep. Yeah, her name is Betsy Tong, last name T-O-N-G. You can find her on Substack. You can find her on LinkedIn. She's a former executive at some very big tech companies and I'll refrain from listing them because I'll probably get them wrong. But really impressive body of work and is now channeled into helping people become thought leaders and helping them essentially leave the corporate world to embrace their knowledge.

and take control of their own life back and make money doing it.

Gordon Sheppard (36:42.641)
Fantastic, because that was a really big part of the story. And then also, if people need to get in touch with you and find your, when can I get the book? And where do I go look for it?

Karley (36:51.007)
My goal, thank you for asking. LinkedIn is the best place to find me. I've got to get that sub stack launched and I just keep saying it out loud so I now have to make it happen. Part of the thing about setting your goal is telling others. So they're like, so weren't you gonna do this thing? But Karley Cunningham on LinkedIn, K-A-R-L-E-Y and Cunningham spelt the traditional way, no changes to that.

LinkedIn is the place I hang out. It's the only social media channel that I invest my timing because I know that's where like-manded folks like you are and Yeah, then I will I will start posting about the book there a little bit more as well and you can jump over to the sub stack if you're so interested in following the journey

Gordon Sheppard (37:32.485)
Well, it's just been so great to have you here to describe your process to get this out. And I know a lot of people are going to draw a lot of inspiration from all the things that you talked about. Karley, thank you so much for being on the show.

Karley (37:43.265)
Thank you, Gordon.