EW 043 – How Association Leaders Can Build A Highly Profitable Non-Dues Revenue Event To Serve Their Members – Winning with Bill Sheehan, Global Head, Association Strategy for D2L

Gordon Sheppard (00:01.152)
Bill, welcome to the show.

Bill Sheehan (00:04.074)
It is wonderful to be here, Gordon. It's about time. I know you've been trying to do this for a while, so very happy to be here.

Gordon Sheppard (00:08.938)
Well, lucky, I'm glad you're happy to be here because I know the audience is gonna be happy to be happy that you're here because of all of your deep experience in so many different areas and the energy that you bring. I've seen you give a one hour talk where it wasn't sort of one concept that flows out in terms of what you're doing. You're bringing sort of value piece after value piece and you back it up with real world stories. And we're gonna hear one of the big ones here today.

that'll be that big win that you're gonna be sharing. But I think maybe there's some people that haven't met you just yet. So if you had to describe yourself, how would you do that?

Bill Sheehan (00:44.194)
Well, hello everyone, I'm Bill Sheehan. Currently I'm global head of association strategy for D2L and I have spent my entire professional career, probably a little over 32 plus years in the association space, in the association nonprofit space. And half of that time I served as a senior executive association staff and then.

On the other half, the other 10, 12 years, I've been on the supplier or the association solutions provider side. So kind of have a very unique background in that I understand how kind of associations run on a day-to-day basis. And then looking at it from a supplier and services sides, know, what do associations need to operate more efficiently, more effectively, and really increase their relevancy within the industries they serve?

So that's kind of me, I'm the association guy.

Gordon Sheppard (01:38.55)
You're the association guy. Just tell me how D2L does what, what problem do they solve for people and tell me a little bit about them.

Bill Sheehan (01:44.184)
Sure, so D2L is probably, it's one of the world's largest learning management systems. And we really focus on three verticals. We focus on higher ed, we focus on K through 12, and we have a pretty big presence in the association space. And we provide a platform, it's called Brightspace. And really what it is, it's a platform that allows for learning and education and professional development for associations, higher ed, and K through 12 organizations.

And really it's designed to be one very engaging, but two intuitive. So it's very easy to use both from an administrative standpoint and from a learner standpoint or user standpoint. And it's really designed to really transform the way the world learns. And we're kind of passionate about that. We've been doing that for about 25 years. And so that's, and I kind of run that association space for certification, accreditation and professional development for associations.

Gordon Sheppard (02:42.378)
Yeah, and thanks for explaining that a little bit. D2L is a serious entity. I mean, you deal with the biggest institutions, you make their learning management systems run well, you've got that deep decades of experience with D2L to deliver on the solution side. So people need to know about that. Somehow we need to know a little bit more about you, maybe about just yourself, if you can let us know, that'd be great to hear. And I'm actually curious now, if you're going to spend this much time on both sides, you're in associations working in roles and you're, you know what mean? Like you could have been an astronaut, but you're still in this association game. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Bill Sheehan (03:12.462)
Yeah, I kind of have grown up to it. It's a very interesting vertical. It's a very interesting industry. And if you think about it, every association or nonprofit is kind of designed to do three things, and that's to protect, promote, and advance an industry. And the wonderful thing about being in an association is you're exposed to multiple ways of success and business models because

For example, I've worked in food related associations and you're not just dealing with say Nestle or something, know, or, or Mandalay's, you're dealing with the whole variety from the, the, the family owned businesses to the big conglomerates. And you really get exposed to that as opposed to being in just one business for your entire life. And it's, it's really what you find it's, it's constantly changing.

There's a lot of inspiration within the industry. There's a lot of dedication to innovation within the industry. And you're kind of part of that as opposed to being in just one corporation, which is also very important. But I've always found it exciting to be in an association space where you're exposed to a lot of creative and innovative and very, very successful people that have started things. so.

I would say I'm a bit of an entrepreneurial mindset, know, based with a corporate background.

Gordon Sheppard (04:37.814)
I love it and so fun to think about associations even where I've done presentations or attended events or that kind of thing. Some of them can be small, some of them can be 90,000 people in Canada. In the States they can get into the hundreds of thousands and probably larger that I'm not even aware of in terms of association impact and like you said an association is an association of a similar type of sort of people. So if I think about the electrical contractors association here in Alberta as an example, it's they got.

I think it's a couple thousand members, individual members, but then 800 companies are there. So if you think about just that one alone as an example of a complex scenario where again, these dynamic approaches that you've got, well, isn't that great? you're sort of entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial, extrapreneurial, whatever that is within the association space. And then if you put three decades in, you've got a really neat perspective because your solutioning would be very rapid. You've been there, you've done that, you've been in the room where it happens and that type of thing. So that's really exciting to have you here from that sort of full perspective.

Bill Sheehan (05:20.173)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (05:34.614)
Sorry, cross border too, right? Can't all North America, you've had exposure in North America and the States. Is that fair?

Bill Sheehan (05:39.106)
Yep, correct. Yep. Yep. So D2L, we're headquartered in Kitchener, Ontario, just outside of Toronto. I'm based here in the States in Delaware. But yeah, but D2L itself is a global company. We're in over 42, 43 countries worldwide. You know, not a small company, have about 1300 employees. We're still founder led, John Baker, who founded this at Waterloo.

He's still with us. He's still leading the organization and still passionate as ever. And that's very contagious within the organization. So you'll learn a lot there too. mean, John's very, has been very successful, but very open and willing to really let creativity really breed itself throughout the organization and is willing to listen. And I think that's why I think we'll get into that, but that's kind of some of the things that really make things work.

where you have a commitment from the top down. And those ideas don't start at the top often, right? Sometimes the leaders are focused on other things, whereas the creativity and the innovation starts at a much lower level. Mid-tier could be anywhere from a manager to an assistant manager to even secretaries and the like. It's just, it's phenomenal. If you have a company that's open-minded and very creative like D2L and John is,

those ideas will flourish and then it's supported by what I will call critical thinking and strategic thinking because an idea is only as good as it is implementable, right? So, and that we're kind of passionate about that here at D2L. So very excited to be here at D2L.

Gordon Sheppard (07:22.847)
Yeah, so that's great. And it's funny, another fellow on the podcast, his name is Randy Volk. And one of the sayings that he said very eloquently and quickly that I just mean to connect here, he said, leaders need to be the river, not the reservoir. And you just described a river of idea flow at all different points, and there's not a block point in there. And so again, if we can take sort of that metaphor in a sense and sort of apply it here, we hear it. Well, that gets us into our first question, which is, if you had to describe your biggest win.

in the work you do or any point in your career or whatever that is, what would that win be and how would you describe it?

Bill Sheehan (07:57.068)
Yeah, that's always a great question because it does cause introspection and sometimes you have to kind of separate and look back and cheese. There's been a lot of things that that I can think that was a pretty big win. That was a pretty big win. But one I would say is the biggest maybe I'm the most proud of was when I was at the National Confectioners Association and this is the candy and chocolate and yes, it is a very sweet gig. It was a wonder. It's a wonderful industry and a wonderful association that represents

confectionery manufacturers. And one of the big ones I had when I was there for a few years, associations are always looking for ways to generate opportunity for their members, ways to be innovative, and also ways to create non-dues revenue. And non-dues revenue is a very critical, important, within the association space. And for those that may not be familiar with what that is,

It is what it sounds like. It's any revenue generated outside those membership dues that you pay to belong to. Because a lot of those dues don't cover everything. It takes a lot of money to run an organization. so associations look for alternate ways that are mutually beneficial to the membership and also to the organization. Well, we were in a position at the National Confectioners Association, we were doing very well. Things were just fine. But we were looking for ways to kind of

grow the industry itself from what we'll call the consumer perspective. And by that, mean those who consume confectionary products. But what's interesting is that when you think of companies like Hershey, Mars, Nestle, and Jelly Belly, Wrigley, and the like, oftentimes they aren't going directly to the consumer. They're going through wholesalers and distributors and retailers that have to buy the product.

And there was one or two shows going on in the industry, but it wasn't truly reflective of just confectionary products. And so one day at a, I will say at a restaurant in Boston, Massachusetts, the CEO at the time, a gentleman by the name of Larry Graham, who was phenomenal, very innovative, was wonderful to work with. He's very open-minded too, very, very bright guy.

Bill Sheehan (10:18.658)
We were sitting in a restaurant and we were looking at, we were at a confectionary, but also there was other products in there. There was even tobacco products and there was other paper products and stuff that were sold into distributors and convenience stores and the like. The candy industry wasn't solely represented. And I said, why don't we create our own show that's just all candy? Let's just think about that. Larry said, I love that idea. He did something similar in another industry.

He said, yeah, this would be great. So we started to think about, how do we just design a trade show that is just representative of confectionary products? That would be great. Well, now who's going to come to this? How would this be successful? Because right now you have wholesalers. That's not necessarily who we wanted to invite initially. We wanted the candy buyer. And the candy buyer at convenience stores and supermarkets and the big box stores where a lot of confectionary sold.

oftentimes is not the highest person on the totem pole. It's those who are generating the paper towels, the coffee, the things that are there. So we said, there's no way we could get these guys to come to a show, right? Because they can't go to the boss and say, I want to go to the show in Chicago, right, for a few days. They're going to have some boondog. no, get back to work. So we said, let's take all those obstacles out of the equation.

And it was kind of the emergence of what we called a hosted buyer conference, where we said, hey, listen, we'll pay for the buyer to be there. We'll pay for his airfare. We'll pay for his registration. And we'll even pay for his hotel. They can't say no to that. It's not costing him anything. You'll be out of the office maybe two, three days. Not a big deal. Well, when we did that,

There was also some obligations that those buyers had to meet with at least five or six or seven confectionary companies, right? So we needed, and if they didn't do that, then we'd send them an invoice, right? So we needed to make sure it was a good meeting. Well, to make a long story short, the idea cut on very well. We had our first one at the Navy Pier in Chicago. It's now, it's grown. There's almost a thousand exhibitors there. That was...

Bill Sheehan (12:34.05)
The team that has taken it over has done a tremendous job for this industry. It's now known worldwide. But it all started with just a brief conversation in a restaurant with a boss and Larry who was very open-minded and thought the whole thing through. And I look back on it now, and it now is probably one of the biggest things the National Confectioners Association does.

is put on the show. Now it's called the Sweet Snacks Expo. The next one's going to be in Vegas, but it's phenomenal. And people from all over the world come. But that was probably one of the ideas and concepts and successes that I'm most proud of. And it's still talked about to this day. And again, it was just a conversation where we were looking for an unmet need that was being unfulfilled within our industry.

And it is now produced an enormous amount of revenue. It continues to generate. There's a lot of excitement around it. It's on all the media that you can imagine, the public, traditional media plus social media. And it's just grown. Now, and I, again, with help, it started and kicked it off, but it was bigger and smarter and more intelligent people that really have taken it.

from where it is now to what it is today. But the idea and the concept was just started by what can we provide to this industry that would be readily acceptable and beneficial to everyone involved? And that including the consumer, the retail establishment, the manufacturers, and even the distributors.

That is probably one, now I made it sound kind of easy. There was a lot of thought and a lot of things that went into doing that. But that is probably one of the most things I'm proud of in my career, was just coming up with that idea.

Gordon Sheppard (14:36.7)
Well, and you're describing one of those, you know, in our careers when we have those one or two, you know what mean? I just, ran into a lawyer recently and someone, a partner in his law firm over decades just got a law changed. And it was one those ones of like, once in a legal career type of opportunity, you're describing something here that could be, you know, it's not that you're not, you won't have more, like you got, yeah, that's a big one. Like when we think about

I can't even imagine the revenue generated. Like I'm just doing some back of the napkin math in my head. It's billions of dollars of revenue. You know, the nature of that industry and, you know, and I don't mean to try and even do the accounting on it, but that's something, like that legacy impact is there. The other thing he set us up with at the beginning of the podcast is he said, you talked about the nature of associations and how creative it is, and you can hear your critical thinking package meeting that moment in terms of bringing yourself, like,

like the Bill secret sauce. There's something there about being on all sides of things and that moment to be able to do that. Plus there's the confidence to be in that setting with your boss. Plus there's the boss and that right moment in time and how we're doing things. Plus there's this sort of Las Vegas, come on down, we'll put you in hotel and we'll get that like so many elements going on here that kind of dialed it in experimentally in those early years. And then we've here now the results are there over time. And I now want to.

go, I'm salivating for a bag of &Ms or whatever that is. here. I just can't even. So I'm just going to jump in and say, we know what the win is. There was a moment in time when you brought forward an idea, and it was fully executed in this association space to almost create a new type of meeting that generated a lot of revenue. Am I oversimplifying it there? Is that about right?

Bill Sheehan (16:00.835)
I'm telling you, it's wonderful. Lord, it is wonderful.

Bill Sheehan (16:22.24)
No, no, think you hit it on the head. And it all and interestingly enough, not to interrupt, but interesting enough, it started in Chicago and grew in Chicago. And the reason being is Chicago is kind of the candy capital of the world. There's a lot of confectionary companies in Chicago only because it's, you know, the middle of the U.S. and it's easy to get to in the lake. But as it began to grow, it needed to move from the Navy Pier, went to McCormick Place. It was then in Indianapolis. And now it's I think for the first time or second, it's going to be in Las Vegas. So.

It's it's you know part of that went into the thinking too. Where do you hold this? So not to not to jump ahead, but like most entrepreneurs or most leaders. When you tend to have an idea, you actually can see in your mind the finished product of what you perceive it to be. And what it can be within that marketplace. Be it, you know Steve Jobs with the iPhone or Bill Gates and Paul Allen with with with Windows.

They tended to see the impact and then worked backwards from that. And they're much smarter people than I am. But I think when the entrepreneur, everyone will have an entrepreneurial spirit. And what I mean by that is they will not, most people do not wanna think like everybody else, whether it be in an association, be it in an org, a company, be it in a small company, a large company.

They don't want to necessarily take the leap and have to go out and generate the revenue and everything else, eat what you kill. But they like to have that entrepreneur, we could do something better. And that could be anything. It could be from the way we deliver our product to the marketplace or a number of different things. They tend to see the end result. And where that critical thinking coming in is, OK, let's work backwards now. And what elements do we need to make this happen?

And you can't necessarily do it yourself. You do need other types of thinking involved in that. But you need to work back because some people who just have an idea and aren't really seeing the end result or the potential it could be are kind of then they fall back to having to have to design it along the way. And that's where things fail and they get frustrated and they give up. But if you understand what this could do for a particular segment or

Bill Sheehan (18:46.456)
part of the industry or demographic and then work back, I think you're going to start asking the right questions. And that's so important. And I think it's important too that you don't have the answers. You don't. You really need to have others come in with a different, who may not necessarily agree with you, but will provide some of those obstacles. Think about these types of things and you have to be very open to that. And that's what we were at.

the National Confectioners because some of our members wanted to stay at the other shows they were going to. And we said, no, we got a better way to do this. And so you really have to be have that that that you know, you can kind of see what it will look like when it's successful and then work backwards from.

Gordon Sheppard (19:34.101)
It's, you're teeing me up here right now because one of the things that I do is I help people reverse engineer their past wins with a structure that I'm gonna call the anatomy of a win, which is we're gonna talk about right now, which is what is the strategy, work plan, people, operations, and results behind the win that you have. And then my evil plan is to get that structure into their world so that when they do their critical thinking on their future wins,

They've got that framework and that's sort of certainly my approach to things. I can hear yours is more nuanced. There's subtleties to it, but we can use the structure that I have right now to actually examine the win itself. So if you had to highlight, know, pick one of the strategic highlights, I'm gonna say, I've already heard you had the vision. You knew what it could become. So when we think about strategy, vision, mission, values, goals, that kind of thing, you had the vision. We know this can be big.

But also there's a discipline in there to be humble, to be open to various inputs, to allow that thing to occur. And then again, along sort of that the goal piece and what that was, for you, how would you describe the strategic highlights that made this win occur?

Bill Sheehan (20:41.56)
Well, I think I was kind of blessed in that I had people around me that were smarter than me. I always used to say, I don't want to be the smartest person in the room. If I am, I'm in the wrong room. Right. So so I was kind of lucky in that I had a very bright, intelligent CEO, right, who was very entrepreneurial. We then had other components from our members and our board of directors who understand.

to the impacts this can have on the industry and the goals or what it's going to take to get there. And so I think where the strategic part that's coming into this again was the fact that what's going to be involved? What do we need? we needed exhibitors. We needed a place. We needed product. We needed the right people, marketing. We needed the

people who know how to put on events and what questions to ask and understand how to hotels. And so you tend to look at you when you start asking these questions, you're actually starting to create an ecosystem, right? Of what you can operate in and what levels of intelligence and thinking are going to be required along the way. it takes, you need continuity. So

I and Larry needed to be part of the whole process as we were going through this because we kind of, this was our vision and how do we implement that. So you do need different levels of thinking and intelligence to bring it to bear, but you need to be part of it. And to your point, not necessarily humble, but you just need to understand that I don't know everything and I need to listen.

and you need to ask questions that are based upon your thinking and your vision, not the one that they may be trying to instill in you to change that a little bit. And that's where I think that when you look at those who have been successful, the Fords, the Carnegie Mellons, the Jobs, the Gates, the Bezos, the Musk, they are passionate about their end goal and that thinking is not going to be altered

Bill Sheehan (23:02.648)
But it can be challenged, but it can't be altered. And once it's challenged, it only gets stronger and wider as well. So the thing about it is you do have to be able to listen and not think that you know everything for that. So that's strategic thinking is, again, being passionate and committed and dedicated to your vision, but understanding that you're going to have some influences that may disagree with you on that.

but it will open up things for it to allow you to grow and be a little bit more successful quicker. So.

Gordon Sheppard (23:37.362)
Well, and there's a lot of moving parts in what you're trying to pull off here. You're saying, we're gonna pull off this event. How many people were at that first event that you executed?

Bill Sheehan (23:46.222)
Oh, I probably yeah, probably about 7-8000 9000 people.

Gordon Sheppard (23:52.406)
So 8,000 people, I'm just gonna put that number, just, that's remarkable, congratulations, that's remarkable. Hey, we're gonna do a new thing. We're gonna get 8,000 of our best friends to come hang out and look at our, you know, look at our, and follow our pathways to revenue generation for the people that we serve through our association. I mean, that's just pretty stunning to get that to happen. And then when I say in your strategy, you were mentioning all the different moving parts. have event planners, hotelers, travel.

bookings, the people themselves, understanding the clients and what they were looking for. You're in, you're not in. We're aimed here, we're doing that kind of thing. The strategy you can hear was very well fleshed out, you know, early on with some bright minds and it, you you said there's other people in the room influencing that along the way, but there's many, many people involved in

to get 8,000 people anywhere to pull this off and get that to happen. That's just so strategically, we've got a good feel for the bright minds that are in there, how things were getting done, sticking to your vision, ala, this is the way we, you know, where there's always a through line, there's always a spine to making sure that it does get done, not that there's not gonna be inputs and that was very, very clear. Great, anytime we have a work plan, anytime we have a strategy, we need a work plan. There's sort of a, there's a moment, you said you were in Boston, you were at a table in a,

Bill Sheehan (25:10.166)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (25:10.301)
restaurant or everywhere. That's like a first kind of moment. And then from that moment, how many months or years till the 8,000 people showed up and put on their name badges?

Bill Sheehan (25:18.454)
Yeah, yeah, so and that this period of time it was almost it was almost three years and here's why that took and really and I'm not just saying this. This truly was how it happened. It was the idea was on the back of a napkin. We just talked about the floor and how it would look and the like and we talked about who would be there and so and that was in the early late early 90s.

it went on the back of a napkin. This was before the internet was coming on and everything was on the back of a napkin. What happened, we had initially got the 8,000 people and now it's grown substantially and significantly larger than that. Really, when you think about how you're putting this together and how you get there, it took three years and a lot of planning.

because there's things in the market, whatever you're trying, whatever that vision is, in this particular instance, it was the All Candy Expo, there are other events out there. And the exhibitors who we wanted there were committed. They're committed to these events in years. Sometimes it's two or three years in advance where they have to commit to these and it goes into their budget. When we're coming into something and saying, my goodness, this is gonna cost you.

an additional amount of revenue that you had not forecasted, that takes time. And that was uncovered, right? That was part of these, what we learned along the way is, we thought maybe we could do this in a year or two, but no, they're committed. You know, cause there was events going on all over the world. They were committed. And so we had to adjust our plan a little bit, not that it was wrong. It was just has to be adjusted. And so then that affects everything else along the way. For example, the venue.

Right. We can't do it this year. We're have to probably do it this year. Right. Those type of things. And that affects all the other areas. So when things change in a new challenge or obstacles put in front of you, you got to remember, I better look back and see what is this going to affect on other things as well. Right. It's not just we'll fix this here and move on. There are some domino effects that will be affected. So that's why it took about three years because and we had everything in play. We had a heck of a game.

Bill Sheehan (27:39.278)
plan right in place. But it just took it took longer than we wanted it to. We really wanted to do it within two years and begin that, but it took.

Gordon Sheppard (27:48.074)
Well, because on napkin day, do you know what mean? It's like, let's get this up next year. It'll be awesome, that kind of thing. And yet I wonder if there wasn't a benefit because you were so ready by the time your 8,000 showed up. Is that fair?

Bill Sheehan (28:00.846)
After work, absolutely, absolutely. You'll think now. No, we wanted it now, right? But I'm telling you, know, visor minds prevailed and I think that yes, we will that that obstacle we thought that might derail us or put things on hold for much longer actually helped us refine our plan to become even better. So yeah, I mean it from from napkin to door opening was a little over three years.

Gordon Sheppard (28:30.901)
I remember getting a distillery tour here in Alberta one time and this distiller was like, oh, if you want to make real Canadian whiskey, you got to wait three years. And he had that clock up with the days counted. He's got 700 days left or whatever. He was real frustrated because he wanted to get this product out the door. But that's what it takes to make great Canadian whiskey. think if you're building an 8,000 person conference with the vision that you had, because you knew it was going to be more than 8,000, you knew that

Bill Sheehan (28:30.998)
And it went by.

Bill Sheehan (28:40.941)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (28:59.175)
once you got it to actually work. And what an interesting thing for leaders to listen to on the podcast, to learn from your experience and say, maybe you don't need to rush. What I've seen people, I haven't done a ton in the event space, but when I've seen people get excited, they think it's all supposed to happen in the first year and they don't have that three year, we're do three years in a row, because the marketing of that first year, I think has gotta be a mountain to climb, to just to get name recognition, to get it to go be.

consistent one year after the other. Is that a fair assessment?

Bill Sheehan (29:28.846)
That's fair and a lot of other influences change too. And the old saying is it always takes you three times longer than you think, know, to start something. It's just because if it was that easy, everyone would do it. But the idea, I think too, and it's okay for an entrepreneur or a leader to be a bit impatient. That's okay, because it does keep you focused. You know, if we need to hit this number, what do we got to do?

If you see in the back your mind, I know it's going to take three years. Well, then things change. Your whole momentum changes. Your whole commitment changes because you're basing it on something. But for those of us who wanted it to happen and happen fast, we all do. But again, you've got to understand the realities of the situation of what it's going to take. And then all of a sudden, time is going by, but you're starting to feel more and more confident that this is going to make sense.

If it's truly good, I didn't want to necessarily be influenced by any other of the competition that were already there. The same people were already going and getting the same results. So I almost wanted that to happen so we could bring in a fresh new approach. For them to say, is the same thing over and over again, I'm still spending money and I'm seeing the same people. Those obstacles, I guess, can actually refine you a little bit more to be ready.

Now, again, we wanted this to be done in a year or two years, and it actually took three, but that was not our goal. We had to adjust our goal based upon the restrictions, based upon the elements that were going to make us successful. And those are the elements you can't change. That's something that you have to work around those elements. So as a leader, you need to think that. And then you need to also educate and bring along those who are supporting you and keeping

their passion and their commitment and their motivations and their momentum going as well. So that's as a leader, you got to say, hey, we're still on target. We're still on target. We're going to make it because otherwise you're to say, this is just, you know, this is just a pipe dream. We're not going to get there. And the answer is yes, we are just not as soon as you think we are.

Gordon Sheppard (31:40.309)
I

There's discipline in what you're talking about and sort of lived experience speaking. So you know what mean? If it's back of the napkin day, you're chomping at the bit, there's peaks and valleys on how you feel about it. Oh, a year went by and we're, right? And it sounds easy in retrospect, but what we're gaining here, and I can tell you having interviewed dozens of leaders on the show, I hear 10 years a lot for something to be really good. I hear 10 years quite often, if not.

Bill Sheehan (31:55.075)
Wow.

Bill Sheehan (32:05.964)
Yeah, yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (32:10.933)
But you know this thing so this is funny enough three years in the context of a lot of successful Organizations is actually a blip for that amount of time. So I love your perspective on time I love you are pointing out the leadership lessons that are in there and then there's the reality of your customers that you were talking to you about what's going to benefit them the most and Not rushing it was a really important piece of the puzzle. I heard the strategic part

Anytime we have a strategy, we need a work plan. Anytime we have a win, also, the third step of the anatomy of a win is to look at the people that were involved. And so if I had to, again, I'll just, I'll keep saying napkin day, but there's that first day, how would you describe your attitude on this ride over these three years? So the first day is what? Super excited, like a kid in a candy store, literally. Like, is that the idea?

Bill Sheehan (32:56.246)
Exactly. Yeah. And I'll tell you, it's interesting. Now being in an association, again, I was lucky and had some really good assets on my side in that our association was made up of the elements that we needed to be successful. The candy manufacturers, right? We were lucky there. That's why that time period was shortened. Had it not been shortened, it definitely could have taken 10, 20 years, right? Because you have to go out and build it.

So we were lucky there. knew that. And that's why we thought we could build this, because we have the ingredients in place to make this wonderful meal, right? How do we do that? And so we thought, okay, we have the elements. We know who will be there and who's actually gonna pay for this. We got them. What's it gonna take in the interim? And so we needed, you start saying in this instance, we needed a venue. So we needed someone who really understood

event planning, right? And then, and we found that person. So you had to go out and get those people because sometimes the existing intellectual capital that you have is not the right one. And that's not saying that it's just not the right makeup. And so you needed to make some change. And when you make change, that also adds to your timeline. You got to bring them up to speed. You got to get them. And they have other roles and responsibilities as well, in addition to just doing a show. So

We looked at all of that. And when you think about confectionary, it's a fun product. No one's going to say it's not. it's recession proof. It's just a wonderful, wonderful product. But when you think about this, there's also aspects of promotion. And this was before social media. This was before the internet. So you needed magazines, newspapers. And we needed people who understand that world as well. So we needed to get the word out.

And then we needed to get the word out so people start, this is really good. Now we needed to get the word out to the people we actually wanted to be at the show who would buy the product to make it successful for the exhibit. So you needed to understand how do we get to that candy bar? Because sometimes they're the hardest people to reach in a retail establishment. And so we needed to bring that person on. So that was all brought up. And that was having conversations with part of that.

Bill Sheehan (35:16.342)
that chain, that supply chain, you will, along the way, all the way from, let's say the show's going to open up, it's going to be wonderful, we're going to have a ribbon cutting ceremony, we're going have the mayor there, we're have all of this. Now let's start working backwards from that. So we're working back from the vision. And then you need to find the right people. And it's not defined. That happens over time. You run up against a certain issue and you're like, we don't have the right, I'm not the right person for this. need somebody here, here, there.

Do you bring in consultants? Do you look at other, you know, complementary associations that might benefit from this as well? So when you think about the people and writing that napkin and you're right, it's euphoria and you're this is going to be wonderful and it'll make a great deal sense. As the days go by, you start thinking we're going to need a bigger boat, right? We just need a bigger boat to make this happen because this is going to be bigger than part of all this, these analogies, but bigger than bigger than a bread box.

But we need to really find the right ingredients that will be necessary to make this successful. And then once it is successful, sometimes the hardest thing is keeping it successful, right? Because now you have other competitors coming in saying, hey, if they can do it, we can do it. That keeps you on your toes. You kind of need that competition. But finding the right people is huge without losing the initial intellectual capital that want to create the idea. And that's why Larry and I were always

you talking about succession planning, what if we got hit by a bus? You know, and then you need to kind of begin to transfer that knowledge just in case. So there's a lot of, mean, but you don't know that when you're on the back of the napkin, back of the napkin, you're like, all we need is a little sunshine and we're good, right? This is, this is good.

Gordon Sheppard (37:04.776)
It's a happy day, but I can hear the ride that you went on. By the way, I'm right with you. We had a bread box when I was a kid in the seventies and I do know Jaws and we need a bigger boat for the folks that don't remember that. I'm just right with you in terms of the time zone that we're talking about for our metaphors is so good. So I love it. So we hear a bit of the ride that you went on, euphoria, which then, wait, we've got to get some capacity in here. So we can hear a bit of the peaks and valleys that you traveled on yourself. Your boss, you...

speak well of at that time. How would you describe his attitude from napkin day on through the process?

Bill Sheehan (37:34.798)
yeah.

Bill Sheehan (37:38.782)
it was absolutely on point. mean, he never lost it. His passion was there too. You could see that he kind of had a similar type of commitment to this as well. so, he had a lot more experience at the time than I did that he brought that to bear, but just a very bright, intellectual.

human being that was also very people oriented. so people just, know, his energy was contagious and his passion was good. And he had to really work two sides. He had to work the board of directors, which is made up of the owners and creators and entrepreneurs in this industry who created big candy companies that are worldwide. So he needed to convince them. And then he had to...

switch and convince the staff that this is the thing to do. We're not going to be doing things the way they always were. We're going to be creating something brand new. And so his passion was there too. And again, that's why I say I was kind of lucky in bringing this to fruition because I had the right things in place. And I think had I not, I probably would have said, I believed in it so much that I said, let me see if I can't take this elsewhere. Right. But I had, I never thought that not, not with Larry. mean, he, we were

We really were in alignment a lot of the way, right? A lot of the way.

Gordon Sheppard (39:05.718)
Well, and thank you so much for the nuance. So right, if you're your boss, you have to walk into the boardroom. Then they got to deal with you. And then he's got to deal with the staff. The confectioners, again, I don't know the accounting. These are serious players in large industries, global industries, when you're talking about moving the volumes and dollars that they would in total sales and that kind of thing. it's serious business. Like, really like to pull this off and make it better. And here you are creating almost not a new way to revenue.

is what you were helping them to, that was the design. so you had their interest and then you're building this out over time. So we've heard a lot about the strategy, the work plan. We've got a good feel for many of the players that are involved, which is kind of fun. The fourth step in the anatomy of a win is operationally. To get a win, we need to pull things off. You've been referring to quite a bit of it along the way. You said, you know what, we need the right event planner, we need the right space, we're gonna deal with travel, we're gonna deal with compensation, we're gonna sort of have...

ways to manage information, ways to put people together so that they get the contact information that they need. There's some of those operational highlights I've heard along the way. Any other, maybe one or two other operational highlights that made 8,000 people show up and have fun?

Bill Sheehan (40:16.94)
Yeah, think, you know, operations, you're right. mean, the only reason this was successful is because we had the right operational people in place and we have fits and starts with that. Don't get me wrong. weren't right 100 % of the time in that. the operations are really the defining factor because if it can't be done operationally, really can't be done. And so that's why I go back to my, you know, an idea is only as good as it is implementable.

The operational side of things sometimes is the most mundane, but the most important. And you can't lose sight of that. You can't lose sight of that, you know, because there are very few people's DNA is made up that I'm really good at numbers. I'm really good at coding. I'm really good at marketing and I'm really good at presenting. You know, very few people have those four interlocking pieces together and the ones that do, we know them. That's the Steve Jobs and the, the, the Musk and the like. So

The operational is something that is part of the DNA. It's part of every step of the way. Is this operationally doable? Be it marketing, be it implementation, be it venue selection, being it developing the floor plan, whatever that is as a leader, when you're thinking about what's going to take to be a success, operations is that heartbeat. It's part of

every decision you make.

Gordon Sheppard (41:46.903)
Well, and I love the unique things that you've added and you've already mentioned. we're gonna, no, we're gonna pay for the flights. That's something you gotta sell upfront, but then you gotta pull that off operationally. We're gonna make sure you get into the right meetings with the right people. I love that, that idea of like, no, we're not gonna help you go to a random networking event. We're gonna get you to go and meet those right people. And that is a...

that's a, you have to pay that price to get into the situation. Otherwise we're going to invoice. You've mentioned that a lot. These are operational unique nuances to this situation that allowed it to be successful. So I just love hearing some of those little bits in there. And then that would have led to those explosive conversations that led to, I mean, revenue results.

long-term relationship results, all that good stuff which then allowed it to have that basis to grow. Love your way of expressing that in terms of the criticalness of the operations but also then these operational uniques that I've heard throughout this story so far. That's pretty cool. So we got the strategy, the work plan, people, operations. Finally there's results. And so in results we have quantitative results and qualitative results. Quantitatively there's 8,000 somebodies that are in a place. There's a venue. There is you and your boss.

sweating bullets on day one to cut the ribbon or whatever it is when you hope it's going to work out. Any quantitative, qualitative results that you'd to think about, point out for this win?

Bill Sheehan (43:07.03)
Yeah, I think you know in this particular instance we kind of knew how much it was going to cost to put this event on, including paying for the buyers to be there, right? So that helps you set a target. You know that that allows you OK, we need to hit this and it helps you with your pricing. Right, we need to have this right in order to cover that and so.

From that standpoint, think, and Larry brought into that, he had a legal mind, but also very bright, and he was in the association space too. And like I said, it costs a lot of money to run an association. So we knew what costs would be incurred and what that end result would look like. And then how do we price it to get there? So quantitatively, I think we were pretty successful. From a qualitative standpoint, couldn't have been happier. And here's why.

because this event was for the candy manufacturers. It was their show. Some of the other shows they were going to, they were just one of many. Think of like a convenience store show, right? You've got motor oil and you've got toilet paper and you got candy and chips, right? You you go to some other food shows, you got everything, right? You know, and go to grocery stores, you got everything. We were the only product there. And so they had a say in that too. And

What we didn't know at the time, we understood that, yeah, you can help design this. But when it was their show, they became attached to it. Their magnetism became, this was their show, this was our show, and we were all working together. And so whether we wanted to or not, we just created, you want to talk about that river versus a reservoir? That river flow was all in one direction and strong. And so qualitatively, we almost,

had them design what their return on investment or return on value was going to be. If we can meet with these five, six, eight, 10 candy buyers, it was wonderful. So I blame it on the product because it's such a wonderful product. yet, quantitatively, we kind of defined what that was going to be because we had those numbers. And if you have those numbers, that's a breath of fresh air. If you're an entrepreneur, if you know exactly what it's going to cost to get this product to market.

Bill Sheehan (45:27.542)
You know exactly how much money you need to ask for, raise or sell things for, right? So that helps. But qualitatively, you almost have to say there's going to be two different perspectives there. One, the association itself. We were going out on a limb. We were taking a big... The other qualitative was for those stakeholders, those members. They had a different one. Did we increase business? Did we enhance our business? And did we provide...

a wonderful product for our members to drive business. So there's two different qualitative sides. And I think as I look back and now, know, time can always enhance things, but it was wonderful. I'm telling you, there was a lot of sweating bullets. Don't get me wrong. There was a lot of sleepless nights, particularly right up to that show as well. So, but I think qualitatively, you know, what you're you're working with the stakeholders, they're going to establish what that is.

If we're paying for these people to come, we want to make sure that they're there, right? That set the target, right? They're setting the target. And you need to have targets. You need to, otherwise, the good thing is you never miss if you never have a target, but you never know if you're on target, if you're doing the right things. And so again, it's establishing those both operationally and financially, as well as what is going to make the stakeholder happy.

or see this as a meaningful impact. That's how you can break it.

Gordon Sheppard (46:54.049)
Yeah, I just mean to, what a remarkable sum up that you've got going there. This piece that's striking me at a time when I've been part, I've been members of a few different associations or chambers or those things. And I think in the 2025 zone, there's a lot of fatigue in those things. But what I heard you say was, let's look at this, essentially a case study that you're describing now and say, how do you get them to take ownership of it?

so that they really dig into it. And what a wonderful way to think about it as opposed to, we're gonna solution it, we've got to sit with our association team, solution everything, it's gotta be great. And then if it isn't great, it's hard to take the heat or whatever. But you talk, this is a long haul relationship development buy-in process to dial it in and get it right over that three year period. Like it's a real success story. And I appreciate you describing the nuance of kind of what it takes. Cause for someone now to come in and,

just reverse engineer this conversation. It would be guideposts for them to put on their next 8,000 somebody's in their world, because we're benefiting from you as a leader in the association space, but also your gathered perspective to be able to sort of put a conversation like this together where we can hit those learning points along the way and go, I can do that too, or I can have the patience with the timeline, or I can make sure that we do something unique that stands out so we're not doing the same old same old.

as we kind of go forward. This has been just super, super valuable. One of the last moments I like to do with leaders that are on the show is if you had a couple sentences to say to a future leader or things that you like to leave behind for sort of wisdom, just a few sentences, what's sort of a bit of leadership advice that you would give somebody, a leader listening to this?

Bill Sheehan (48:37.506)
Yeah, I think the idea is if you believe in, you know, if you believe in what you're doing, don't give up. That's the easiest thing in the world to do is give up. And everybody's going to challenge you from your mom to your dad, to your coworkers. Everyone's going to challenge you because human nature is they tend not to like to see people succeed. That's just human nature. You don't give up whatever you do. Don't give up.

and believe in your passion and your dream and that goal, but you have to have a vision of what you think this will look like and then work towards that. That helps you get other people involved on we can create a better environment, we can create a better workforce, we can create a better work environment, we can create a better product, right? And you have to explain that to them and then they'll come along just like it happened in the...

confectionary, all the exhibitors were in alignment with this, right? It just helped you get there. If you're constantly getting pushback, you're either talking to the wrong people or you need to tweak your vision a little bit. just, Mike, just don't give up. Don't give up. That's the easiest way to it.

Gordon Sheppard (49:54.583)
Don't give up. And how lucky that you put in the 32 years for us to be able to give an eloquent interview here today, because we're benefiting from the combined critical thinking package that comes from that. just, wow, what a great gift here today, Bill. I just wanna say thank you so much for being on the show.

Bill Sheehan (50:11.15)
This was my pleasure, Gord. Thank you so much for this opportunity.