EW 041 – How To Populate The World With Inspiring Leaders Through Peer Learning Groups – Winning with Nancy MacKay, CEO of Mackay CEO Forums

Gordon Sheppard (00:01.807)
Nancy, welcome to the show.

Nancy Mackay (00:05.07)
Thank you, Gord. I'm excited to be here with you today.

Gordon Sheppard (00:07.719)
Well, I'm just, know, this show is about supporting leaders and we're talking to someone that supports thousands of leaders, literally through the work of the kernel of work that you started many decades ago to now get it to this point. The influence has been enormous for the impact that the work that you've done out of, know, your work prior to MacKay CEO forums and during all those kinds of things. So we're really lucky to have you here for all the leaders that are going to get to learn a little bit about.

one of your biggest wins as we kind of go forward. But maybe there's some people here that maybe don't know who you are. So if you had to introduce yourself, what would you say?

Nancy Mackay (00:43.992)
Thanks, Gordon, appreciate that recognition and really full credit to our whole team at MacKay Forums. Our dream is to populate the world with inspiring leaders. And I started the company 20 years ago because I could see that it was lonely at the top. And that's exactly what we've had over 5,000 Canadian CEOs, executives and business owners participate in our confidential peer learning groups. And we're really focused on helping Canadians.

Canadian company, I'm the majority owner and based on what's happening in Canada today, we're just doing everything we can at MacKay forums our entire team to support the Canadian business community so that we can all be unstoppable Canadian business leaders and focused on winning and not letting all the negative energy get in the way of our success.

Gordon Sheppard (01:36.457)
I'm so glad, it's funny if I had you in sort of a over a glass of wine right now, I would talk about, I think sovereignty is one of our biggest issues, either in my lifetime or for my kids lifetime. And the Canadian business leadership capacity that you are building is a critical piece to helping this all go forward. So I'm glad that you've zeroed in and you are do it so well in the work that you're able to deliver.

Tell me a little bit about just about yourself, maybe a little bit about some of that history and education and maybe about you as well.

Nancy Mackay (02:08.216)
Well, I'll say this that I started MacKay Forums with my husband and he is just an amazing human being. He's my business partner and we started the company in the basement of our home in North Vancouver. We had two little kids and a big mortgage and I remember we went out to dinner one night, our date night and having a bottle of wine together and I said, you know what, I think it's time for us to quit our jobs and become entrepreneurs.

And he said, what? That's never going to happen. We have these two little kids and a big mortgage. That's never going to happen. you know, it's one of these few times in life where we had to have another bottle of wine. And by the time we finished our dinner, he was like, all right, let's let's do this. And so that's how MacKay forums got started, having a vision to be able to just really make a bigger difference in the world as entrepreneurs and really impact business leaders.

in Canada and I'm really excited to share with you Gord that both of our adult children now they're 24 and 26 have joined the family business over the past couple months. So shocking to me that they would want to do that but really excited and very rewarding for Rob and I to have both Evan and Garrett in the company as well as we focus on the next chapter of impact for Canadian business leaders.

Gordon Sheppard (03:32.682)
I love it. There's been so many different people with kids at different ages. Mine are 24 and 22, not in the family business in terms of what that is. So what a neat thing to have that legacy build out and actually attract them into wanting to participate in what you're doing. Love the starting point, because it's so fun now because you've got, you you have a large entity, you're large influence, you know, known, this kind of thing. But that's 20 years in the making. And there's that origin story of like, wait a second, we're going to take a chance here.

think when we talked in the pre-interview, there was a moment in your consulting work prior to this where something happened to give you the spark a little bit to get in there. Can you take me into that story that you were sharing?

Nancy Mackay (04:12.418)
Happy to. Yes, one of my clients, Ted Nick Tickner, he was the CEO of Mr. Lube Canada. He was in a confidential CEO peer group. And I had just finished doing a big strategic planning project with the company and Ted called me up and he said, hey, would you like to come and share the Mr. Lube strategy story with a bunch of guys that are in my peer group? And because I think some of them can learn a lot and they might want to hire you. And I said, well, Ted, I'm very happy to help you.

And so off I went and I did this presentation to the CEO group. And after I did my talk, the chair of the group took me out for breakfast to thank me. And he said, Nancy, we loved your presentation. Ted speaks highly of you. Would you like to throw your name in the hat to become our chair? And I nearly fell off my chair because they didn't involve women at the time. They didn't allow women. And I was the first female speaker they ever invited into the group.

And I said, well, I don't know exactly what you guys do, but, and I have no judgments, but it doesn't make sense for me to throw my name in the hat unless you decide to allow women in. And this was 20 years ago. And fortunately, they had some big meeting and they decided that they would allow women in. And that opened the door for me to throw my name in the hat. And I'm so grateful to those 14 very successful CEOs who took a chance on me and believed in me.

And that group still goes on. I'm not their chair anymore. But once I started chairing that group, and many of them have become mentors and on my boards and what have you over the years, we now have 35 % women in our peer groups. we, you know, have now we have 1200 active members across the country. And so it really started with, you know, those, those guys who, who created that opportunity for me. So I will forever be grateful. MacKay wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for.

for that group.

Gordon Sheppard (06:11.901)
love, you can hear sort of the servant leadership in your voice in terms of, know, thank, being thankful to those around you for your team already you've mentioned, you've mentioned these guys as well. There's some Nancy's secret sauce in there. There's something that showed up that got noticed. Is that fair? There's something going on for you in that moment that kind of got that spark.

Nancy Mackay (06:33.984)
Nancy's secret sauce. Well, I think it's just this mindset of if I spend every day of my life helping other people be successful, which is what MacKay CEO Forums does, populating the world with inspiring leaders through peer support, then people are gonna support me too. And that's a big part of our philosophy at MacKay CEO Forums is leading with generosity. How do you show up every day and just make the world a better place?

and that you'll get rewarded. It's not necessarily one-on-one and that doesn't matter. It's just have a mindset of leading with generosity and you will be rewarded. Others will want to help you.

Gordon Sheppard (07:17.385)
I think that's wonderful and clearly the result, you the proof is in the pudding for those early days. Love hearing that kind of origin story and this kind of thing. Couple things come to mind. One is so wonderful to hear the, I'll come in, but women have to come in. You're reminding me of being in the rotary and it took into the eighties for some of the rotary groups to break and allow women in. You're reminding me of Deborah Rosati who was on this show. She runs Women Get On Board. 10 years ago, 10.

Nancy Mackay (07:43.138)
Yes, fabulous. Love her.

Gordon Sheppard (07:45.386)
10 years ago, the stats were coming out. It's 12 % women on corporate boards in Canada. Deborah's like, well, I'm in the right part of my time to give back. And she now has 850 members in her group, along with closing the Toronto Stock Exchange to celebrate women get on board in their 10th year and their anniversary, along with now 29 % on women. But her thing is we're not done. Parody is where I'm headed for. And that's her sort of mission as she kind of gives back as well. How lucky for me.

to be able to connect with leaders like yourself and Deborah to bring them on the show to bring, share out those messages. That's just, I love hearing that origin story. That's great. Well, what leads me to sort of the big question that I always like to ask in these interviews is if you had to describe your biggest win in this journey, what would that win be and how would you describe it?

Nancy Mackay (08:34.146)
Well, I have to start by, at a personal level, my biggest win is I married well. And Rob and I have been together for 28 years and he's been my business partner and my biggest mentor and my biggest fan and so grateful for him. And then Devon and Garrett are two adult children who are just, they inspire me every day to be the best version of myself. And so that's, Rob and the kids are more important to me than anything else in life. So, so grateful. And from a business standpoint,

It's founding MacKay CEO Forums 20 years ago and really focusing on the dream of populating the world with inspiring leaders and offering confidential peer support to the Canadian business community. And you know what, Gord, like less than 10 % of CEOs and executives in Canada participate in peer learning groups. Like people don't, they're not even aware that peer support exists. And you know, it's so lonely at the top.

especially now with the tariffs and the recession and the AI disruption and things, exponential change and what have you going on. I just don't know how people are going to be successful without surrounding themselves with other successful business leaders, whether it's on the K group or some other group. It's just, really want people to have peer support. So thank you for inviting me and helping to build the awareness that it doesn't have to be lonely at the top if you actually surround yourself with successful people.

Gordon Sheppard (10:04.051)
So the win is your family first, very, very clear, right? And then, but in the business side was, you know, standing up MacKay and bringing it to this point in 20 years. And I can't imagine now with the next 20 and 40 and generation of years, the impact that you're gonna amplify as you kind of go forward, cause you, you know, you're dialing it in all the time. I just need to take a second for maybe that, that CEO leader that is lonely right now listening to this podcast.

To take them in the room for a second, if they were like, well, what's peer support? What's a MacKay CEO forum experience like? And I don't mean for the whole brochure. I'm looking for, so I'm a CEO, I'm gonna try it out. I joined a group. What does it look like when I walk in the room and what's a highlight maybe from what happens in a peer support moment that you would then paint the picture for them?

Nancy Mackay (10:54.318)
Imagine you're sitting around a boardroom table with 14 CEOs from all different industries that are very, very successful and they're lifelong learners and they believe that sitting around the table and learning from other CEOs is going to save them a lot of time and it's going to help them raise their game. And what that would be like if you had a team of 14 other successful business leaders.

that we're on the journey to help you be successful, not just with your career. Because at MacKay Forums, we wanna help you be successful with your career, but we don't want you to sacrifice your health and your important personal family relationships. So talk about a competitive edge of having 14 people with no agenda. And there's no competitors in the room. Everybody there is just there because they're lifelong learners and...

They lead with generosity because peer support is they're also sharing their wisdom and their insights, the mistakes they've made, the lessons they've learned with you. So that's the big idea is you can go through life and you can try to find people that can help you and you can hire external consultants. I think we need to do all of that and I do all of that. I have coaches, I hire consultants, AI coaches is a big deal right now. and having 14 people that are in your corner helping you.

and you're meeting six times a year for a day and doing a two-day retreat and you're investing the time to work on you and to help you be a more effective leader and to work on the business. That's what peer support is all about.

Gordon Sheppard (12:32.106)
I love it and I think you mentioned those lonely leaders. I know in my own work I've met them. You know what I mean? In terms of those people that sort of they get so isolated and they work those 80 hour weeks and whatever. But you're talking about a way to find peer help with people they're gonna immediately respect. That's interesting too, right? Because these are other successful people that are in the room under a properly facilitated scenario that allows those conversations to be well used. Cause they know when their time is well used and these people would be demanding to have their time well used.

along with that chance to be, I'm gonna say, vulnerable and share in a way that, again, moves their business objectives forward. Thank you for describing the picture. The win, I'm just gonna focus on the MacKay CEO forums, one, although I'm sure we could do a podcast about your family. So we'll say that the win is, know, standing up MacKay CEO forums over this 20 years, there's an origin story in there somewhere where somebody invites you in and you kinda get the idea, and then there's a bottle of wine or two and it gets this thing sparked up, because you've got a business partner who wants all in, and you jump in and you make it work.

Right? So I always jump into what I call the anatomy of a win at this point to say, what is the strategy, the work plan, the people, operations and results behind getting the win? And it's funny if we can dial it back to that, the origin moments. There's something about the vision, mission, values, goals that were happening in those early days. And then the strategy would have evolved, I'm sure along the way, but any highlights from the strategy that you'd like to point out for making this a success?

Nancy Mackay (13:56.526)
The first thing I'll say is that when Rob and I first started MacKay CEO Forums, it was just me. And I talked him into quitting his bank job and I quit my global consulting professor jobs and we became entrepreneurs. so...

I built these 10 groups across the country and Rob would do the back end of the business. And so it was more of a solo practitioner type of a company. And my goal was I'm to build 10 of these groups and I can help 100 CEOs across Canada. And that took me five years to do with support from Rob. And then I woke up one morning, I thought, you know, if it's just me.

I can only help 100 CEOs, but if I can find other coaches, consultants, trusted advisors that believe in peer support and love working with CEOs and executives, then in my lifetime we can help 10,000 around the world. And so...

That's when I had to have another date night with Rob and a couple of bottles of wine to say, look, you know what, it's time for us to really scale this business to make a much bigger impact. And so he believed in the vision, which was to 10,000 around the world in my lifetime. And that's when we started partnering with our forum chairs and now we have over 60 across the country. And the strategy really started with, and I recommend this to all,

entrepreneurs is setting up an advisory board of really smart, successful business leaders that had scaled and many of them were in that first group that invited me to become their chair. They became my first advisory board. And so when I first started, it was like that board and working with them to say, look, there's not a lot of peer group organizations on the planet.

Nancy Mackay (15:47.244)
We can be a disruptor in the peer group industry by offering a different product for CEOs that's less time intensive and higher impact and more diverse. So that was the first strategy. It's like.

we weren't trying to steal any kind of market share. We just wanted to create market share because my group, my original group and the first five groups or 10 groups that I built said to me, we don't want monthly, we don't want you to waste our time, we want a one hour speaker, we want four hours of one-on-one coaching. So they really helped me design the strategy and the product, which then enabled us to, then we grew very, very quickly and have continued to within our space.

because we don't require a monthly time commitment and we're really a best fit for forward-thinking CEOs who want to be held accountable and really want to raise their game. And we're not for everyone, so that's why I say, I just want people to have peer support. so like ours is less time intensive, higher impact, more diverse. We're a beneficial corporation. That was another part of our strategy in 2018. We became a B Corp and really that's business as a force.

good CEOs around the world that take a stand on that and that includes a commitment to diversity and inclusion all aspects industry, gender, ethnicity, career stage. We just want to include for anyone that we're a fit for we want to welcome into our MacKay peer groups and into our MacKay community. So that first board really helped set the strategy for be a disruptor, create market share, don't try to steal market share and just serve the Canadian business.

KD.

Gordon Sheppard (17:33.097)
I love it. It takes a tremendous amount of energy in that early five years I can hear. Do you know what I mean? Setting up those 10 groups, getting it going, but you went customer first. I'm sure there's people in, such an admirable thing to go customer first and allow them the formation, not of your big idea out to the world, but to actually intake and find what that is to dial in a rhythm that then allowed you to get that next scale up level. Funny, there's gonna be another.

bottle of wine sometime soon for that next scaling up point. can hear it, you know what mean? Like when we look at the timeline, because that actually leads us into that second part of the anatomy of the win. If we have a strategy, we do need a sort of a work plan along the way. there's, you've already told me about some major inflection points. There's a starting point in year zero-ish. There's a five year point at another moment when you go to that next level as you're kind of going along. When you look back at the work plan timeline, what are any highlights along the way other than the ones that you've described?

Nancy Mackay (18:28.472)
think one of the game changing things that we did is we hired an EOS coach. And this was during COVID because that was obviously a very difficult time and we overnight had to become a virtual peer group organization and really.

focus on serving the world. I CEOs from all over the world that wanted to join our peer groups. They really needed help. So overnight we went virtual, we went global, we had peer groups all over the US and Australia and the UK and what have you. And then I heard about EOS coaches and I thought, know.

This is the time, like we need to invest in EOS coach and to help us learn how to really navigate all this turmoil and just stay very focused on here's how we're going to win and this is what we're going to do to serve the world at that time. So EOS has been a very effective operating system for us and a huge advocate of.

All the coaches that are doing, we have many of our forum chairs that are EOS coaches or Pinnacle coaches or scaling up or what have you. It's just having a toolkit to help scale the business. And when we continue to use EOS as our operating system, we self-moderate now because we've learned it. But that was just a huge game-changing toolkit for our company.

Gordon Sheppard (19:49.149)
So neat because it dovetails nicely. And so we hear three inflection points on the timeline, but also there's the next step, which is people who are the key people in a win. And we've just named one. There's an EOS implementer that you brought in at the right moment in time who was able to then help you get set up these foundational pieces as you kind of go forward. Also, you've got advisory board people in the backstory there somewhere. heard along the way that you're sort of not handpicked, but you've invited into then and they've advised you at certain moments along the way. So really strong.

acumen at knowing when to reach out for help and getting sort of really good help it sounds like along the way and so in the people side I'll just maybe start with you there's how would you describe your attitude at the beginning of this win and maybe some of the peaks and valleys along the way just from an attitude perspective what do you think?

Nancy Mackay (20:36.814)
The starting point is always the hardest. And so I remember when Rob and I, you know, toasted, all right, let's do this. And we both quit our jobs. And I literally over the next 90 days, I had panic attacks.

And I went to see my doctor and I thought, know, I'm 40 years old. I think I'm dying of a heart attack. And she said, no, you're having panic attacks because you and Rob just quit your jobs and you've become entrepreneurs. And fortunately, she is, still a really close personal friend of mine, Ruth McAwrath. And so she basically said, I can give you some drugs to settle down your panic attacks. But at the end of the day, you have to believe in yourself and you have to surround yourself with people that are going to help you. And, uh, you know, she was my biggest cheerleader and, and

Fortunately, she's also a very successful entrepreneur and so was able to help me through that along with other coaches and mentors that helped me get through because I didn't think I was going to make it. I just thought to myself, well, this is just too stressful. But then I surrounded myself with people, coaches, counselors, my doctor, a team of people that were like, you you can do this. And so one day at a time, I just kept focused on winning and success and what have you and had a lot of support in the early days to get started.

it.

And I think that that's when it comes to attitude. know, back then I didn't really have the self-confidence. I had courage because clearly it takes courage to quit your job and convince your husband to quit his job and to become entrepreneurs and two little kids and a big mortgage. That was like difficult. And at the same time, I really decided that I needed to start focusing on what are my strengths and how can I use my strengths to serve the world. And I discovered Strengthfinder.

Nancy Mackay (22:20.314)
which is a game-changing tool. I remember having a little yellow sticky on my computer, my top five strengths. I'm an achiever, I'm a relator, I'm a wooer, I'm a learner, I'm a self-assured, whatever. And I just every day would say, okay, I need to build my self-confidence, and that's the only way I'm be able to serve the world. So just really shifting my mindset from, my gosh, I don't know if I can do this, to I am gonna do this, and the way I'm gonna do it is by really focusing on surrounding myself

with successful people, people that believed in me. And I had a lot of people telling me I was crazy and all that kind of stuff. And it's just, I have no judgment. It's just, I really focused on what are my strengths and who are the people that are going to believe in me? And then how do I continue to partner with Rob and all the people that were going to be on the journey.

Gordon Sheppard (23:11.285)
Thank you for having the courage part, because there's something stubborn about entrepreneurs when you kind of get out there and it's not an easy thing. And thanks for being open about those tough moments of like, wow, it's first 90 days and the panic attacks are there. I just interviewed a wonderful woman named Shani Gwyn. Shani said, clarity in an ambulance. As she sort of had that 90 day unwanted time off from her entrepreneurial journey to come back stronger and better for those moments. it sounds, you know, these

these things that I hear when people go through these ups and downs, it's quite something. And here we are, you get lucky on the 20 years looking back sort of moment, of course, but we get a sense of the trenches of what you were kind of going through in early days. And then you're leveling up all the time. You can hear it and you're going to continue as a lifelong learner. can hear that you're that too. You're going to level up again and you'll level up again as you kind of get going forward. Your husband just is a big supporter in this. Any thoughts on sort of him and his attitude through this?

Nancy Mackay (24:10.026)
We've just been phenomenal business partners and do our best to be the best parents we can be with our amazing family and what have you. for him, when he was about to turn 55, we had one of our date nights and he said, like, you know what? I want to sell this business and let's find something else to do with our lives because like this is a time to sell great, great market conditions for us. And I literally burst into tears and I said, what?

I want to do this until I go to 120 with a healthy lifespan and go boom. Like this is my total passion, populating the world, inspiring leaders. And he said, well, that's great. It's not mine. And fortunately, he's the finance MBA, you know, banker, former banker. He's like, it's time. So I said, well, you know what? Then we're going to have to find a business partner so that we can, you can retire. I'm never going to retire as long as I'm happy and healthy and having passion around this business. You can retire and I'm going to keep going.

So we went out to market and we selected Yellowpoint as our private equity partner. So they became the majority owner of the business. This was in 2019. And so grateful because COVID hit six months later.

And if we didn't have Yellowpoint as our partner helping us through that, like, I don't know what would happen to MacKay forums. So forever grateful and Rob's super happy being retired. And then a few years ago, we decided to buy back the company from our private equity partner. They were with us for four and a half years. And I said to Rob, think it's time for us to take this on. And it was complex, bringing a whole new shareholder team. And these deals are always complex, but very excited that we

went back to being the majority owners and Rob is still happily retired. But he will say that he still works because he's married to me and now both of our, know, Devin and Garrett are in the business so he's still, you know, behind the scenes but really helping all of us and helping MacKay in his own way as an external and obviously a shareholder and on our board, etc. So his journey, I mean honestly, I couldn't do what I do without his support and just so grateful to have him as my husband and business partner.

Nancy Mackay (26:23.536)
and her best friend and mentor.

Gordon Sheppard (26:26.421)
How lucky to have such a mature relationship. mean, these are, know, when you got your hearts, your life's work in play, but wait a second, there's a shift in, know, but you've managed to sort of go through all those conversations. Those date nights have been pretty critical along the way it sounds like as you kind of go forward. Now the kids are in there. If we had all day, I would, you would start to name leader after leader in the advisory groups. You would talk about those moments when they lifted you up or gave you a good piece of advice.

I don't mean to get through all of them, but we've heard about some of the key pieces that are there on the people side. Strategy, work plan, people, operations. You mentioned a couple moments along the way where to stand this up, you had to learn from the entrepreneurs about what sort of cadence, rhythm, operationally they kind of wanted to see for the type of business model they were looking for, the type of event that they were looking for to participate in. You mentioned the EOS. For the folks that don't know, the Entrepreneur Operating System is globally known.

proven out, it should be utilized and I'm glad to hear that you were able to get that implementer in. Any other sort of operational highlights along the way that you'd to point out? I'm sorry, you've got the shareholder thing in there in play in the back here. Any other operational highlights that you'd like to point out for this success along the

Nancy Mackay (27:39.31)
Well, before we get back into operationals, I want to talk about my team.

Gordon Sheppard (27:45.205)
Okay.

Nancy Mackay (27:45.89)
because we've had game changers on our boards and I'm a believer in as the company evolves, the board needs to evolve. So we've had different evolutions of the board over the past 20 years. I feel like we're just getting started. We're, you know, on to the next chapter of MacKay with a whole new team because of what's happening in the external world. So as the company evolves and the board has evolved as has our leadership team and the types of people

that would be a best fit to help us take MacKay to the next level. So just always had an amazing, inspiring team of people that believe in our dream and are committed to serving the Canadian business community and that's been a huge success factor. Our forum chairs, they're not full-time employees, they're independent coaches, consultants and trusted advisors to Canadian CEOs and executives.

They're an unbelievable team of people that have dedicated, they're all former CEOs and executives. They've dedicated their careers to helping CEOs and executives through peer support. So there's a lot of people that have helped MacKay support the 5,000 Canadians that have participated. So I don't want to miss the opportunity to really shine the light on.

Business is about people and life is about people. And my belief is that if you have the right people that are a culture fit for the organization and that believe in the vision and the mission and everything else, you're going to win. And if you don't have the right people, you really have to have the courage to find the right people because that's what business is all about.

Gordon Sheppard (29:26.943)
Well, thanks so much for making sure we catch up with that because these are critical pieces to the whole thing as things are going along. I'm curious about now, just while you're mentioning that, because you're dealing with lots of different people coming into your scenario. Everybody's leading with generosity. Would you say that's a commonality amongst and everybody's a lifelong learner? Like if we talked about your onboarding matrix or whatever you want to call it, like I describe it, but there's something in there where there's some commonalities amongst these, your leadership team, the chairs that you're talking about.

Is that fair?

Nancy Mackay (29:58.402)
Yes, we're, you know, I've been on panels on culture and how do you build winning cultures and with Waterstone, one of our strategic alliance partners, and I always say that MacKay CEO forums has been and will always be a fast growth entrepreneurial culture. We're a B Corp, which business is a force for good, taking a stand on diversity and inclusion. So.

that's who we are. And again, we're not a fit for everyone, but for people that that's the type of organization they want to get involved with, whether it's our members, our chairs, our MacKay advisors, our speakers, our partners, like anyone that gets involved with McKaysio forums, that's who we are. And so we really want to attract people that that's inspiring for them. And I will say this, that I still chair a group I started 17 years ago, not the original group, someone else is sharing that, but

my CEO group, they have been with me. I've been their chair and I've helped them and they've helped me. You know, turn into a CEO when I declared to them, you know what, I'm going to become the CEO of this company and will you support me? And they have, and some of them have just been there with me since day one. And so that's another team of people that's been instrumental at.

making MacKay forums what it is today. And they've provided me with all sorts of insights. And you want to talk a little bit more about in addition to EOS, what else has helped the operational side of MacKay? Well, it's me, chairing my peer group six times a year for a day and doing a two day retreat and getting access to all of the issues and challenges going on, staying current and relevant and learning from them how they're solving any aspect of their business.

It's a combination of operating system, but also learning from other CEOs. What are you doing to tackle your challenges?

Gordon Sheppard (31:53.197)
So you didn't just sort of step into CEO and get into the corner office and sort of wait for it all to happen. Your boots are still on the ground, right? You're still sort of in touch. And like you said, you're on the cutting edge of what's happening in those things, which allows you to have those inputs into all the different areas that you're talking about. Of course you want to live to 120, keep doing this. You just get to run into all these great people in every area of the work that you're doing. And you're very clear about if they're a fit, you know how far they're going to go. And once they're there, so it's now not dozens or hundreds, it's

thousands of people again that in this extended scenario that you've created. Wow, that's wonderful. So we hear strategy, work plan, people. Thank you for bringing me back on the people part. then operationally, as you mentioned there, that you've got that chance to be hands on. That's one piece. Any other operational highlights in case I don't want to rush by that.

Nancy Mackay (32:42.286)
Well, we've invested in technology solutions and we're on another journey of now that we have AI as a very exciting and disruptive technology, that's a whole not a level of operational effectiveness and how do we use AI and we're really focused on.

I use AI, I have my AI strategic advisor on a daily basis. Our whole team is now we're investing in our entire team and using AI to help us not just with operational effectiveness, but the growth side of the business and really embracing the fact that we have to continue to invest in technology and in particular AI that's going to, it's just changing the game. It's changing how we live our daily lives. It's changing how we do our work. It's changing our mindset.

mindset around leadership and so we really need to educate the Canadian business community. We had Rocky Ozaki as a speaker yesterday for a big virtual event that we did and he it was shocking to me to learn that Canada is number 44 out of 47 in terms of AI adoption. Countries around the world adopting AI. So I just like I just said to my team, you know what we really need to.

get this whole embracing AI. And part of that is we're focused on two themes this year. One is embracing AI and unstoppable CEOs and executives, because we have to have a winning mindset, which is why I love the work that you do, Gaurav. It's all focused on winning and how do you win and not letting all the negative energy get in the way. So we're focused on training all of our chairs, our team, our members on

We have an unstoppable CEO retreat that I just did with hosted with two of my groups. It's just so important to get us into this positive winning mindset and embrace speeding up our ability to embrace this, this AI technology in order for Canadians to win going forward.

Gordon Sheppard (34:48.63)
I remember being in a workshop I was teaching about effective meetings years ago and I said to a group of leaders, how do you celebrate? And no one said anything, pretty much. And then I said, do you have a wins list? And 95%, if I'm in room of 160 people at a conference, if I'm 90 people, if I was in with five people recently with a leadership team, the wins list one is stunning to me because it just shows the nature of leadership, I'm gonna say in North America or Western society.

about this lonely at the top thing that you've described. And that win thing, they can talk trouble all day long. But that thing of like, tell me about your win and help them to articulate that. And suddenly their eyes are going up and to the left. I've noticed that a lot when I'm in networking moments. I'm well, tell me about your win. How does that go? So I'm so glad to hear about your unstoppable work. And I know your unstoppable work is based on, in our pre-interview, it's based on some substantial work that's being done. What was the fella's name that you said was doing this wonderful work?

Nancy Mackay (35:45.282)
That's Positive Intelligence by Shazad Shamim. And really it's such a high impact, powerful, simple toolkit to get everybody focused on winning and mental fitness and...

staying, we call it above the line, in a positive emotional state because our performance goes up, our stress goes down, our relationships improve. And so it's definitely part of our whole unstoppable CEO and executive toolkit that we're rolling out across the country for all of our members and our MacKay community.

Gordon Sheppard (36:18.698)
I hope people hear it and write that down and sort of start to get thinking about that or get out and touch with you because the way that you describe putting it together, I know in our pre-interview and just, know you're touching on it just now. The other piece I wanted to mention, I'm in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Edmonton has the Alberta Machine Intelligence Institute. AIMEE is the acronym there. There's about 80 people working there. It's a nonprofit that was hived off of the University of Alberta. Richard Sutton was one of the original AI sort of geniuses that has been acknowledged many times over the years.

And I just say it for the folks that are listening, there's a conference they have there called the Upper Bound Conference. And it's five days. people are coming in from around the world to experience that. So you're hearing all kinds of things that are cutting edge in the AI space. One of the things that I learned there through an executive stream that I participated in was that it's single digit participation in AI uptake, essentially, for Canadian businesses. So I hope it's a bit better than that now. But I'm so glad to hear, having learned that statistic, that you folks are in the middle.

with your influence, with these thousands of CEOs that you can help, that you're taking a lead in that area because you know from the capacity building work that you're doing, it's gonna make a huge difference. There's another whole podcast that we could do right now on the AI side. So strategy, work plan, people, operations. Finally, there's results in terms of the anatomy of a win and quantitative and qualitative results. What are some of the highlights, maybe quantitatively and qualitatively, you'd like to point out from this win?

Nancy Mackay (37:46.39)
In terms of results, think that the number one thing is my belief is as a company, if you're not growing, you're going to be out of business. And in fact, &P is one of our national partners and they did a presentation recently and I learned that there are very few Canadian businesses that are around after 20 years. And we're celebrating 20 years this year. And I had no idea that, again, that's a shocking statistics that companies don't live on. And my belief is that

You've got to just continue to focus on growth, even when the going gets tough and it's the dismal economy or we're in the recession and the tariffs and it feels like there's all kinds of things that are getting in the way. It's really, we've always doubled down on.

How do we continue to double our chair team and double our membership and double the impact and do our annual member census and get our members to give us feedback on what can we do to really enhance their member experience so that we can continue to grow and also retain the amazing members that we have across the country. So it is a hard focus on growth, not at the expense of operational effectiveness and financial and profitability. And we've always been a very profitable.

company again with gratitude to the our board members our team and the people that have really helped us in all aspects of the business but I would say the one fundamental thing is about focusing on growth and being very clear you know who is the customer today who is the customer in the future listening to our members what do you really need what's the impact we're making how do we continue to just focus on who are we and how do we just serve

the people that we're best fit for in Canada.

Gordon Sheppard (39:36.078)
I love it. And quantitatively just sort of hearing in there thousands of CEOs sort of thing, you know, there's that aspect to it. The number of chairs, really effective chairs that you had come through. You've got these team members at different moments that have come through. Your kids are coming up now like in terms of, so when we see sort of real impact on creating opportunity, there's all kinds of different ways that that's happened. Qualitatively, how does it feel?

Nancy Mackay (40:02.174)
I honestly, I jump out of bed every morning at 4 a.m. I'm a very early morning person. Don't judge me. I'm in bed very early. People think I don't sleep. I do. I have an aura ring and I make sure I take care of my health, because you know.

I want to go to that 120 with a healthy lifespan. And I believe with the exponential technologies, that's entirely possible. And it's the most exciting time to be alive because we are able to take care of our health and have a much longer healthy lifespan. so it's a jump out of bed in the morning, very passionate about what.

what we do at MacKay Forum, so grateful that I, of that first group that helped me discover my passion and what I want to do for the rest of my life. And so it feels just so exciting and energizing. And it's not all rainbows and puppies. Like there were times where, you know, the tough times, the dismal economy, the COVID, we have the AI disruption. And I just continue to learn new tools, surround myself with positive people and feel like we are doing this together.

Like, and this is a big theme also for us this year is 10x the collaboration across Canada of the Canadian business community. Because when we're collaborating, we're going to be a lot more successful and doesn't have to be lonely at the top when we have a mindset. And it's been very inspiring because this year we've had phenomenal growth. We've added over 20 new chairs. We've like continued to have membership growth. Like it's been one of the most successful growth years.

for MacKay forums and I attribute that to this idea of I'm so grateful that this crisis with the tariffs has created a sense of urgency for Canadians to come together and realize, well, why don't we collaborate with Canadians? Why don't we figure out how to just do a lot more collaboration than we've ever done in the past? And that's what I witnessed happening, which is very, very inspiring.

Gordon Sheppard (41:59.832)
How nice to hear the cutting edge of what's happening, the fact that your company is participating in that, in the capacity building. I'm hearing country in this. This is bigger than company, which is so great. I love hearing that, that fills me up. The last thing I always like to say is if you had sort of one of those, a leader in front of you and you wanted to sort of pass along, you your sort of two, three sentences of, you know, best leadership tips or advice, do you have sort of something that you'd like to say to people to pass along?

Nancy Mackay (42:30.222)
Well, if I could have two, I would have lead with generosity and really have a mindset when you feel like you need help. Think about how can you help that other person even before you ask them for help. And that has served me personally and our MacKay community. And the second one is build on your strengths, invest in yourself.

Really get clear about what are your strengths, what's your passion, who do you want to serve? Just really focus on that and you're going to win when you're just showing up every day being the best version of yourself, stepping into your strengths and making the biggest contribution.

Gordon Sheppard (43:15.373)
120 is on its way. I can see it. Thank you so much for doing a wonderful interview that so many leaders are gonna learn from. Nancy, thank you for being on the show.

Nancy Mackay (43:23.458)
Thank you, Gord. So grateful to spend the time with you and in your audience here today.