EW 040 – How To Build A Distributed Leadership Model Through Self-Care And Defining Your Boundaries – Winning with Shani Gwin, CEO of pipikwan pêhtâkwan

Gordon Sheppard (00:01.114)
This is Shani Welcome to the show.

Shani Gwin (00:04.024)
Thanks for having me.

Gordon Sheppard (00:05.742)
Well, it's really good to have you here because I had a chance to see you speak at a United Way event. And I was super impressed with the confidence level you brought and also the uniting words that you brought that cut through. There was moments in that conversation that I can recall where you were like saying things out loud that might've been uncomfortable for certain people, but you made sure that that crowd heard them. I love that. That made me reach out to want to see if you want to be on the podcast. Thankfully you did. Then in the pre-interview for the podcast,

There's a phrase that I, I'm gonna let you say it out loud first, but there's something you said to me that I can't stop thinking about, and I'll make sure we surface it in this conversation, because it was just so profound from a leadership perspective for me. So I'm just really glad you're here. And just, you know, I know the audience is gonna get a lot out of it, but a lot of people haven't had the chance to meet you. So if you had to introduce yourself, how would you introduce yourself?

Shani Gwin (00:57.73)
Well, tansi, hello, my name is Shawnee Gwin I'm a sixth generation Métis person. So I'm connected to the Cunninghams on my mom's side. It's a large Métis family that settled in St. Albert, Alberta. And then on my father's side, I am a Ferguson. So Métis family that settled in Gruard, Alberta, and then made their homestead in Spirit River.

Alberta. And then I'm also a descendant of Michelle First Nation. It's a First Nation that is or was located where Kalahou, Alberta is now, but it was enfranchised by the Indian agent in the 50s, so most of us lost our status, either from that or through other elements of the Indian Act.

I'm Irish, Welsh, Scottish, and Panamanian as well, so I actually had one elder tell me that I am a child of the universe, which I like. yeah, I also introduce my spirit name, Mahagan Oyo-yos Asquio Natsiga-san. So I've been given that name Howling Wolf Woman.

take that as you will. And yeah, I'm a mom. I have two kids, married, happily married. And yeah, and I'm the CEO and founder of pipikwan pehtakwan and Wasigan Kisawatsoen.

Gordon Sheppard (02:28.208)
That's a wonderful introduction. I think the piece that we're going to touch on a little bit here is in relation, wow, there's so much to unpack there, but in relation to your business, right? There was a time when you weren't a business owner and then there was a time you were a business owner. We might be sort of touching on that here today. By the way, see the strawberries on your shirt. I was just on your website checking out some stuff and I see that strawberry pointer rolling around there. And I thought, isn't that fun that you guys are pulling everything together. That's super, what's the strawberry story? Is there something in there?

Shani Gwin (02:56.512)
Yeah, so the strawberry is a heart berry. So it has a teaching. It's the only fruit that has its seeds on the outside. And so there's a teaching around vulnerability and how vulnerability comes from strength and love. So it's just my favorite. It's like wearing hearts. It's just like love, you know? So I love them.

Gordon Sheppard (03:22.416)
Thank you so much for conveying that. to go sidebar for just a second, I just got a great audiobook from Brene Brown, Daring Greatly, which got me into sort of her take on, you said vulnerability. We could do a whole other podcast from the authentic foundation that you can hear the deep roots that are in your everyday.

Shani Gwin (03:36.91)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (03:43.118)
Speaking the long time and investment that you've made in integrating all of that family history to make sure that that's important in introduction and why you bring this authenticity to your ups and downs that we're gonna hear about here in the podcast here today. That's just, we could go on and on. That's just so good. So at this point in the podcast, I always say if you had to describe your biggest win in maybe the work that you do, what would that win be and how would you describe it?

Shani Gwin (04:09.964)
Yeah, so when we were talking the other day, preparation, I think the thing that came to mind is it's both a entrepreneurial and a personal lesson. it's really about learning about my worth and boundaries. And I think what you probably want me to talk about is distributed leadership. yeah. And so.

I had a vision of what I wanted to do when I started this organization and what I didn't really account for was how difficult it is to do something so different when so much is ingrained in our own minds. Like my mind, people on my team, our clients, our vendors, we're all conditioned to work in a specific way and because things are moving so fast,

you you just get caught up in it. And I know we're gonna talk a lot about it, but so I would say my win is something that I'm still learning to win at, which is creating space and boundaries for myself to also be able to have joy and rest and the freedom to create.

Gordon Sheppard (05:27.344)
The wind is creating space and boundaries for yourself. One of those adult lessons that I think you're lucky in a lifetime to get it. Some people never get it. Do you know what mean? In terms of going through a whole lifetime. you're young and you've had a chance to sort of have that experience, but it's earned experience. Because there's, when we talk about the peaks and valleys of this journey, you didn't sort of happen on it by reading a book. Like it lived experience. what I heard in our pre-interview was your company gets going. Is it explosive growth? It's a rocket ship.

It's kind of what happened and then what was your reaction to that from a leadership perspective and take us there.

Shani Gwin (05:57.742)
Yeah.

Shani Gwin (06:03.178)
I mean, you go from a place of where you were working as sort of a cog in a huge machine, and then I go into sole proprietorship, and you know, things are going really well for me, better than I thought, in order to leave my, you know, government job. And you kind of go from this place of not thinking that you're even on the radar to all of a sudden you're everybody.

wants to know what you're doing and wants sort of like in a really good way too, right? Like they want to work with us. And so yeah, we just exploded, you know.

Something that I can be so grateful for is that, you know, during the pandemic, so many people I know had such a hard time with their organizations. And I kind of had a lot of guilt and shame because ours was just, I could not keep up because there were so many people that needed support in communicating, even just emergency communications and health communications to indigenous people, which was a really challenging audience for people to connect with.

And then just from doing that work, people, the word of mouth, just carried on. yeah, I had looked at getting a partner at the time. It didn't end up being a good fit. And we just, we kept trying to figure out how to share the load. But again, when it's my vision, you know, people see me as the leader, I think.

people just when you're so busy you just start moving back into that triangle and and the bottleneck comes and then and then you're not doing a good job and you're working all the time and you're stressed

Gordon Sheppard (07:52.836)
Right, so here you are, you're in a cozy, comfortable place. I'm gonna say in the communication space, and I don't mean to limit you for what that is. Is that fair? Is that the right way to describe your work?

Shani Gwin (08:03.444)
yeah, I don't know if it's comfy and cozy, but yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (08:07.055)
I'm just saying like someone had to understand the nature of your work. you're that you're a cog in a machine in a government scenario. And then you come out and you're like, no, I'm to do this on my own. And you come out into the world and you did something that maybe not a lot of people that come out in that field get into, which is you drummed up a lot of work. And suddenly you said that the light was shown on you and you got a lot more attention. The thing that you said in the pre-interview, and I'll bring this up from your words and tell me if I'm wrong.

Shani Gwin (08:17.262)
Mm.

Gordon Sheppard (08:33.229)
was you then, you started out and because you were saying we do things that we're used to, you called it a colonial mindset. Is that the right way to say it?

Shani Gwin (08:40.846)
That's how I describe it, Yeah, because I think what I was sharing with you is just that even though all of us are colonized, I'm colonized, everybody's colonized. And so we're all trying to, and I think that's why there's so much generational change is that every generation gets a little bit more comfortable with pushing some of these barriers because it's not comfortable to live in a colonial society.

And from an indigenous perspective, which is this is a world that we were living in like not even a hundred years ago. And people forget that. They're like, what are you trying to get back to? It's like, well, it wasn't even that long ago. Like this is something my parents remember, even though the impacts of colonization were still very much alive and well. People were living this way and it's around distributed leadership and

You you hear a lot about the circle model and it's about, you know, being able to come to the circle. It doesn't matter what role you carry, you're there just as everyone else is and have the right to share and provide insights and feedback and collaborate together. And when you look at the success of a community, it's based on everybody working together for the success of a community.

Yes, there are elders who tend to have the teachings and the wisdom, but another part of that aspect is that a lot of our teachings believe that when you arrive on the planet, you already know who you are. You already have these laws that guide you, and a lot of our parents would just support that and then help us understand how to be part of a community while still honoring our uniqueness.

And so when you try to do that in a business where you're still having to exist in this very patriarchal, capitalistic situation, but you're trying to break it apart so that we're all understanding we have a responsibility here and we have to rely on each other. And if I don't give you the agency and autonomy to make a decision, it's just gonna keep coming back to me.

Shani Gwin (11:04.68)
And I'm never gonna get the agency and autonomy. That is one of the reasons why I left my job. I wanted to be with my kids more and I wanted to make my schedule and I wanted flexibility. And so when you work in a colonial model, you'll find that you won't get that.

Gordon Sheppard (11:23.823)
It's the open door policy is one of the worst things that a leader or a manager can do, right? Cause you, you've lived it, right? You're like, Hey, come talk to me. I'm the leader. In the meantime, you've got whatever 20 requests a day and you're working nights and you're working weekends. And is that kind of the impact that this approach had for you in those crazy days?

Shani Gwin (11:30.124)
Really?

Shani Gwin (11:44.567)
I think it's just, well, I honestly don't know if open door policy is a bad thing, but I think you have to be aware of like your boundaries. Like I actually got a business coach at one point and she gave me this model that I found so helpful. It was like, there's a little circle in the middle and it's like, this is the problem or the situation. And then there's three circles that go around the little circle. And each of those circles is environment.

the other person or other thing and then you. And so in a lot of situations like, okay, this is me, the boss. Here's Pippi Guan, Pitta Guan. Here's the situation and here's the person, the other person. What is actually in my circle that I can do? And what's in Pippi Guan's and what's in theirs? Whereas before I was just making my circle to cover it all.

And I was like, I will take on everyone's responsibilities, like being an overbearing mother, essentially. And, and again, it just, even if that's what people wanted or didn't want, that's what ended up happening. And even though that wasn't my intention.

Gordon Sheppard (12:58.926)
And this fits into that, yeah, and it fits into this sort of, if we say colonial or maverick or, you know what I mean? We trace the history of maybe what my understanding a little bit of what that would be, which is we praise the lone wolf who leads the charge and is the hero or whatever those things are. And yet with that experience, so many leaders burn out, managers burn out. You're trying to lead people, but you've got this way where you think you're supposed to have a handle on it all. Plus,

I don't know there's anyone to talk to. I don't know about your experience, like you feel alone in that moment. Plus people are coming to you with everything. Was that your experience? And then what was the impact of that approach?

Shani Gwin (13:29.871)
It's really nicely.

Shani Gwin (13:39.043)
Yeah. I think it was my experience and I won't say like it that it was just even my team, like it was clients that were like didn't accept what one of our staff members was telling them and they were like, well, I'm go, I want to meet with Shawnee or I know Shawnee and I, know, and, and then even just being accessible in nature, like that's just who I am. I'm very inclusive and want to be accessible.

but I had become too accessible to everyone. then I was just sort of in the situation where I didn't know. But I also wasn't, like I just kept, I'm such a optimist, I guess, in that I could always see the light and I was like, just a little bit more, you could do it a little bit longer until I actually, my body just, it just said no to me in a very public place.

and I collapsed and my husband's a former first responder and he's convinced that my heart stopped. He thought he was gonna lose me and I, when I did wake up, I was convinced I wasn't gonna make it. And it took a long time for us to figure out what was going on and still to this day I've not received.

a definite diagnosis. But when I, you know, it's been two years since this has happened, when I look back and the changes I've made, this like the immediate self-awareness after that happened was a thing all in its own. Like I had such clarity in the ambulance going to the hospital. I was like, I know exactly.

Like, I don't know what's happening to me in this moment, but I know exactly what I'm doing wrong and what needs to change. it's been hard. Like, you don't change someone who survived. You know, how I picked up those tools was a survival tactic, right? In order to survive, you know, I picked up where people were lacking in order to support the greater good or to make someone happy or...

Shani Gwin (16:00.109)
or to stay safe and you know, in my 30s, like I didn't need to be that person anymore. And that was like my clarity. And so in that moment was my win because I had such a clear path forward and I became like obsessed with it. I think in a healthy enough way that I was like, I...

I know that I don't want that. I know that I want to be here because I have two young kids and I want to be there for them and that's the end of the discussion. And so I'm going to figure out whatever I can to make that happen. And I don't have to be in my office until 11 o'clock at night every night trying to figure out everything that's going wrong and take the blame in the fall for everything when...

I can't, I can't, I can't be responsible for everything that's going wrong. There's a team of 25 people here.

Gordon Sheppard (16:58.516)
No, not even, not even.

Yeah, you've got your team and all those things. Clarity in the ambulance. That's stunning. Honestly, should be the title of your book. I mean, it's just like, it's just, it's one of those things of like, my goodness. And what an awful way, except I meet people on the show that have dramatic stories like this. I've worked with leaders. One leader said, yeah, my turning point was when I woke up in the emergency room after the breakdown or the collapse, right? These thing of.

Shani Gwin (17:06.772)
Mm. Yeah.

Shani Gwin (17:12.301)
Yeah, sure.

Gordon Sheppard (17:31.71)
I'm going to say A type or push, push, push. And you get it to that far. But in the meantime, the win was building space for yourself, being super clear. Now I want to meet your kids. Do you know what mean? Like there's that thing of that excitement that you've got. wow. And then that really clears the deck for working in a different way. And so the before part, which was this is the way we're used to doing things. This is the way I was brought up or trained or the environments I worked in. I get to this moment of clarity. And then

There's a moment where you come out of that and the win is doing things differently. Is that fair? Yeah. And the difference is reaching back into your roots for a distributed leadership model. Sorry for saying that. I'm just so fascinated. But you called it circle. And again, we could dig into all the detail around that. But that's a good description of kind of where you've gotten to now, where

Shani Gwin (18:04.259)
Yeah.

Gordon Sheppard (18:21.665)
Before somebody, a client, somebody might come up to you and say they need this type of help or whatever, are you just able to say no thanks, not right now, or take care of it yourself? Like what's the, how do you put that into action?

Shani Gwin (18:32.757)
I think sometimes it's not even about saying no, it's about saying yeah, but we won't be able to do it till here or you know, like especially when you're in startup mode, like you're just trying to say yes to any project that comes in. You know, you've got pressure of I've got mouths to feed, they have families at home, we're producing your livelihood. And not always thinking about

what the impact of that is because even it would be me being like okay well even if you can't do this I'll do it I'll take I'll take the project on and I'll lead it and you know and that means survival of the the company and and providing for you guys and it's not rational like it's it's

And so a big part of that actually was reframing my mindset of from survival to thriving, like surviving to thriving, and even coming at things from an abundance mindset. I've always been able to be a very forward thinking, believing in a positive outcome, that things are gonna be hard, but they won't be hard always. And so I think that's always something that kept me going. But in the end, what I think...

I wasn't doing was thinking like, okay, it shouldn't still be this hard. know, like something needs to change and because I'm more of a creative and a visionary when it comes to systems and operations, was like, you know, literally just pulling things out of my hat being like, what about this? But yeah, going back, I think something that I've always known is natural law, which is a Cree teaching. And when you're born, you're...

you're taught that you have those four natural laws which is kindness, honesty, strength, or respect depending on the teaching but those kind of go together. Sorry sharing, kind of, honesty, did I say sharing, strength, or respect, kindness, and honesty. Sorry I forgot, lost track of which one.

Gordon Sheppard (20:40.587)
And those four things are in you, right? When you arrive in this world kind of thing.

Shani Gwin (20:44.515)
When you arrive, you only have one cry. And you're honest when you're crying. You're honest in your love that you share. You're honest in, you you're just inherently kind. Like, have you ever met a brand new baby who isn't kind? Like, it's just everybody wants to be near the baby.

Gordon Sheppard (21:01.709)
you're making me just my kids. I just saw my 24 year old the other day and I got a 22 year old and I ache for, I don't need grandkids yet, but it's one of those things around like just waiting for that moment of joy around what you're describing and I love it. The authenticity, so thanks for going through a traumatic experience for our sake. You know what mean? Like, I don't know what to say about that, but you've got this lived experience where there's a before and after and the win becomes.

Shani Gwin (21:17.913)
right?

Shani Gwin (21:23.695)
Yeah, no problem.

Gordon Sheppard (21:31.469)
setting the boundary, if we leave it that simplified in a sense, and then allowing for the opportunity to draw on your roots, to go to practice in a sense that is much more holistic than you were doing before. Am I getting that about right?

Shani Gwin (21:48.707)
Yeah, like making time, like there's so much of my history and my ancestral knowledge and teachings that I've been given, like even around the eagle, like that that's a leadership quality to go up high and look down at perspective and like look back to where you were and look where you are now. Because you know, when you get in that cog in the fast moving colonial state, you're not sitting there going,

remember last year when we couldn't even figure this out and look at how minimal our problems are now and so taking a lot of those teachings in and making like actually creating space to just be alone and reflect and like listen to everything around me you know I talk about this story a lot but and it's such a random

moment in time, but I was at a conference and I just had some spare time and I went for a walk down the river behind the hotel and the river was just like moving so fast and I could hear the falls coming from another direction and I was like, there's gonna be, there's gonna be some kind of chaos I'm gonna come across and so I keep walking and I could see the falls and all the water's coming down and there's forests.

And like, what's gonna happen when these two meet? And I keep walking and they meet and it's like natural law. It's a kindness. They cradle each other. It almost looks like a yin and a yang and they start swirling and then it kind of disappears. And then the river changes direction. And it's like two mountains. And I'm alone and I'm just taking this all in and I'm like.

I'm so grateful for this moment to be able to take this in and have this slowness in my life and receive this message, which at the time I was really thinking about resistance to change or resistance to, guess, change. that even if there's resistance, it's actually very natural for there to be resistance, but it's also very natural for things to work out.

Shani Gwin (24:09.037)
the way they're gonna work out and start a new path. And I just felt like all these things click. And so that is a real win for me is when things are getting overwhelming. I actually can feel it in my body now and I can say, yeah, no, I'm turning off my computer. This will be here for me tomorrow or the next day. I'm going for a walk. I'm gonna meditate. I'm gonna go hug my kid. know, like, what am I gonna, I'm gonna do something that fulfills me.

and there's so many other messages that I can receive and maybe it's not the like woo woo kind of messaging but there is always a message or there is another way to listen and get the solutions to your problems or even your inspiration for your ideas outside of ourselves.

Gordon Sheppard (24:58.377)
I love it. If people stop the podcast right there and just rewound the last sort of 60 seconds of what you said, that's such a gift in that it's so neat how many places you're drawing from, because you've got your heritage, Ying and Yang's getting in there, so through a bit of Asia in there, and we're getting some Irish in there too. We're all mixed up. This is so good. That's so neat. So wonderfully said, and thank you again for taking the time to be able to articulate it, because I don't know that you would, if I'd met you pre-

Ambulance if you'd be articulating it as well as you are now having spent the time to sort of really be understanding of it and so clear That's so yeah, it's wonderful. See wins the boundary simply we set the boundary and then we go from doing things a certain way and moving forward in a different way I was jumping to what I call the anatomy of a win at this point in the conversation and say, you know What was the strategy work plan people operations and results? behind the wind so

Strategically, if we say vision, mission, values, goals, maybe in this case it's like live. Do you know what mean? Like for what you're talking about, what would you say is the strategic highlight behind getting this good thing to happen?

Shani Gwin (26:09.167)
think it was, because I didn't actually really learn the lesson immediately, even though I knew there was still this part of me that was, it's like programming, right? And so, like I remember, I took three months, I think, off work, but right away I was supposed to have a speaking engagement, and I seemed to think that I was gonna get on a plane.

and still go do the speaking arrangement after I'd collapsed at a wedding and also had to go to the emergency room another time after that because of another sort of flare up. And I was like, no, no, I'll just do this and then I'll take the time off. And I had a really good friend of mine kind of look at me and say, you're not going. so I think honestly, the strategy is you really have to build a circle of people that really

trust you trust and care about you in a way that isn't transactional that is actually relational because I I needed to hear from somebody else at that moment that I had value in rest rest was of value not only and I think I needed to hear that it was a value to them that I took a break and and so I think it's it's building your

circle, but it's also taking that time out and Creating that space of like what is it that I really need and and it's a lot of work It's not like going to therapy one time it's it's a constant re reflection and investment in self and understanding how you are able to impact a situation and how others are able to impact a situation and know

when to stop. And I think one of my biggest strategies honestly is you feel it immediately when something is not for you. And we have been trained to ignore that or over explain it or excuse someone's behavior. But honestly our bodies are trained and we have an intuition that we really shouldn't ignore.

Shani Gwin (28:26.135)
And you know, sometimes we're wrong, almost, I would say 98 % of the time, we're right. And so I think that strategy is like, when you make that time for yourself, you get to know yourself so well that you are even aware of when you meet someone or you're in a situation, you're like, this actually doesn't really feel good. And I don't know why, and that's okay.

But I should respect myself and what I'm feeling right now to know that I'm queuing myself in for something here. And I should pay attention to that. Even when I was getting sick, I was like, I'm fine. And it's like, even though I knew I probably should have just taken a half day off and had a nap and I would have been probably really good the next day, but instead I would push it and then I would get really sick and I'd be out for like a week with pneumonia or something.

Gordon Sheppard (29:21.75)
That's a, it's a non-colonial thing to say rest is good, but I heard you say rest is good. I heard you say, people around you that are not transactional. That's such a gift of wording that people can then say, no, I need those relationship people that when they say something to you, you listen to them. My dad died when I was 16. He was 51 years old and had a massive heart attack and he was gone. And when I think about lessons and why do I do the podcast?

Shani Gwin (29:21.773)
So it's just those voices.

Gordon Sheppard (29:50.221)
There's all kinds of things when I get to meet leaders like you. It's to get these stories out there, and this is a valuable one, to say, no, wait a second. Pushing through is not the thing. Because if you can't play, you're not in the game. And if you got these kids and these families, you're not in the game. Like it's just not fair to not. And yet what we're doing here is you're giving people a pathway. You've earned this and you're very eloquently pulling together like bombshell after bombshell with like, no, here's what you do. And then this, that's just...

really well said, thank you so much around the strategy piece. Anytime we have a strategy, we need a work plan. The work plan in your case was kind of given to you. You're you're knocked out, you're in an ambulance, and that kind of starts this timeline of change. And you said you're still on the path. So would you say that it's finite and done, or do you think it's been sort of six, seven years in the making, or how would you describe the timeline and the highlights in the time long?

Shani Gwin (30:45.355)
I think we're here to be lifelong learners, right? And so it's never going to be done. I don't think I'll be 80 years old and I'll still be pulling out bits of wisdom and things will be clicking and feeling good for me. But I think in the work plan, it's really about that, like going back to self, I guess, in that you are going to know.

and be open to the opportunities as they present yourself, present themselves to you on that path to understanding yourself. Because not everything is going to be curated perfectly.

And you might have an expectation, this thing is going to help me, but it actually might be a stepping stone to something else that will really help you, or meeting someone who's really gonna help you. another aspect, I think, of the work plan would be when you say yes to something, you're also saying no to something else. And so when you take that time, and again, another aspect is you might hear seven generations thinking, it's like when you make a decision, you're supposed to think,

of like the impact you're going to have seven generations from now but also what does that mean for our ancestors seven generations back and so I think in in my present it's like when I you know I get asked to do a lot of speaking and there was one that came up a little about a month ago and I was like that sounds really interesting so many details we'd like you to come on November 1st

And I looked at the calendar, was like, nope, sorry, I can't go. And my team was like, yeah, you can, blah, blah, blah. I was like, nope, my daughter's birthday is the next day. I'm not going anywhere. I'm staying home. And they were like, oh, okay. And like, that's the thing, it's like, nobody cares. You know what I mean? You put all this pressure on yourself. The person who's gonna care is my kid when I'm not here on her birthday. Like, why would I do that? So.

Gordon Sheppard (32:45.964)
Good on you. And good on you for putting yourself in that position. And it's interesting you mentioned those timeline moments along the way. One of those things I was thinking about is as we reach out for help, your stepping stone comment I love around people say, well, go see a therapist. And then they go see a therapist once and then they never go again. They don't have that open mind to being a stepping stone to the next therapist or the alternate version or whatever that is. They try something once and then they're stuck back in to that thing. But you said you opened up and you were open to the things along the way.

And then you've also, again, back to talk about setting boundaries, those kid birthdays rip by so fast. I was so shocked. I don't go to lacrosse rinks and hockey rinks anymore, and I miss it. Like, it's one of those things of like, I'm having that moment of like, my goodness, when this little precious guys are doing the thing, I'm so glad you've made that a priority and how lucky for you and your family that that clarity from an ambulance is being put into action as we kind of go forward. Strategy work plan, there's always people involved. We've heard a lot about you.

and your attitude throughout the process. There's a moment of, yeah, you've said it in spades in a sense. I don't mean to go over it and over it again, but just sort of briefly, if you described your own attitude at that beginning, you had the clarity, I know what I'm gonna do. And then your attitude, is it just been easy sailing or is it sort of ups and downs as you kind of go through attitude wise towards implementing what you're trying to do?

Shani Gwin (34:05.967)
I think there's been ups and downs. It hasn't been, I think it's smoother sailing now, but what happened when I moved myself out and took three months off was I saw that distributed model flourish. All of a sudden, everybody steps up to the plate. Shawnee's not here. We know we can't bug her. And everybody, everybody knew.

they could do it for three months, you know what I mean? And I was like, when I came back, I was just like, you guys are awesome. And you know, we still end up moving into that model sometimes, but then I have to remind myself like, no, no, no, no. But I get why it happens. I don't really blame anyone because the colonial timeline is like.

this person only has $30,000 and they need to spend it by this date, but they have to have the deliverable by this date. Like that doesn't actually give you time to do meaningful, well thought out work. Really, it doesn't. But we could do it, but then the stress it puts on the team and then everyone needs a decision right here and there. So we're still operating in that. So it's very easy to slip back into that bottleneck.

but I have such an incredible team. I always have, I always have. And a part of it is their own personal journey too, of being like, I can do this and I'm amazing and confident in my decision. And I think what I was doing was trying to help people who felt scared or confused, but what I was doing was limiting their opportunity for growth. And so now I see this leadership model that isn't still perfect. We're almost there, I feel it. We're like on the cusp.

And then also just like that openness of trying new things. Like I went to yoga, I went to every kind of specialist. I went and saw psychics. Like I went to different kind of new agey healing, sound bath, went to my elders, did traditional medicine, Western medicine. You know, I was just like open. I really cracked myself open. was like, whatever is gonna help me, I'm open. And I think that's something.

Shani Gwin (36:21.869)
Well, maybe I went a bit overboard sometimes, again, on the boundary, but there was something from each of those that I learned about myself, or I was hearing a lot of the same messages, and eventually you just start, it's sort of aligned again with Indigenous culture because we share the same stories verbally so often so it becomes part of who you are.

And I felt like because I was just constantly opening myself up to these different types of opportunities, in a nutshell, I was hearing the same thing over and over and over again to a point where it was like, I didn't feel like I needed these people to treat me and tell me these things as often anymore. I still do need to go to therapy. I still need to go, you know, go for a massage or relax or whatever those things are. But, you know, I really...

I really did, I just went bananas and I had the privilege to do that too and I know that we don't all have that privilege so I'm really grateful for that but I don't know, I just opened myself up to the healing that anyone could offer. That being the leaders on my team, that being my family, being people that are actually in practicing spaces, I just opened myself up to that possibility.

Gordon Sheppard (37:47.765)
I love it. the piece that I'll take out of that is be open and you took it all in, you started to see commonalities in some of these modalities that you were getting into. And then there's something about don't limit the leadership growth potential of your team. When you think you're helping, you may not be helping. And that's another gift out of this conversation that someone can take forward and go, am I being right? Am I being overly helpful? And I like that it's overly helpful because that's not being mean and tough. That's actually, no, I'm really trying to help, but maybe that doesn't work either in terms of then

them getting a chance to be self empowered and step up. So nice for your company that they had that time zone to actually kind of get on the horse and go and figure it out. And what a much more rich experience you're coming back to with your change perspective, along with their own self empowerment going forward. That must have boded very well for your company and the level of conversation. There's so much going on there. So we've got the win, we've got the strategy, the work plan, the people. Operationally, you got to make some changes. So I don't know, in this case, I'm going to say it's

Shani Gwin (38:25.615)
Mm-hmm.

Gordon Sheppard (38:46.944)
diet and exercise and mental health. You know what mean? There's an element operationally to that component. There's a who's got the keys and the passwords while I'm away. There's something about that in there. Any operational kind of highlights to get this wind to occur?

Shani Gwin (38:59.983)
Yeah, I think there were, because we grew so fast, we didn't have a lot of those foundational pieces we needed. Like, the process wasn't always documented, and so therefore people didn't have the clarity they needed. So they would come to me for an answer. And I remember thinking like, well, it's not documented yet, and okay, I will answer this time. But you know, what we've done is we've created...

all of these opportunities to start documenting things, bringing in operations consultant who is helping us do these things properly, creating that structure and those boundaries around that. Yeah, and so for, and for me, it was just like.

I didn't even know what a CEO really did. Like all of a sudden I was a CEO of a company and all I had was this idea and I knew I was good at my job job, which was like writing and being creative. I didn't know whether I was going to be good at leading people or building a successful company. And so part of that was creating this boundary around is like, actually don't have to be this accessible. I don't have to be at this meeting just because someone wants

me there. I can give that empowerment back to my staff. I can help guide them. I can give them the thing that if they want to know exactly how I would do it, I can say that and give that to them and have them implement it. But at the same time, it's like asking that question. was like, well, how do you want to handle it? You know, like, and just flipping it on and trying not it's like literally taking a breath and being like my impulse is to help.

And even though it's coming from a really good place, it's also coming from a place that is also trying to protect me, which is such a weird thing. And so just trying that impulse control and really being aware of what is actually coming out of me, I guess, as a solution and helping put people more on the spot to be part of the solution.

Gordon Sheppard (41:08.586)
Love it and take a breath, again, you've given us a way to do it. So it's lucky again that you're articulating these things so well, because someone could hear that and go, right. Yeah, okay, there's that pause. And then I go forward as we kind of do things. good. So strategy, work plan, people, operations. Finally, there's results, quantitative and qualitative. Quantitatively, you've got more time back. I'm just guessing. Quantitatively, I don't know what to say about.

head counts and dollars and I don't mean to get into all that sort of thing but if you wanted to pick highlights out of the results for this quantitative qualitative what would you like to tell people?

Shani Gwin (41:47.201)
I think you see a team at PPGone that is, feels part of creating something, you know? Like one of our directors always says like...

The alternative to this is being part of something where it's already all figured out and they tell me everything I'm supposed to do. And he's like, I get to be part of creating this. I get to be part of the solution. I get to be part of the vision. And that's exciting to me. And that's what I want. I want that investment back in the company. And I know that sounds weird from probably to a lot of people who are like, oh, of course she wants investment in the company. it's like, but we do a lot for our team. Like we are a very generous

organization and we can be, we can probably be even more generous. We're at $2.5 million company, know, like we're not messing around here. We are successful. We have an invested team. I think we just did like a survey the other day.

like 99 % of our team is proud to work for us, that they think that we should be in existence, know, that they love working here. And so I think it shows other people that they're supposed to do that too. Like if I'm working all the time, doesn't that tell people that they're supposed to be working all the time? If they see me say, I'm sick, I'm not coming in, that allows them to say, I'm sick, I'm not coming in.

and be sick and not come in and don't work and stay, you know? So you just have to think about like what people see and how they're going to take that as what they should do. So I think it allows a lot of our team to have joy and rest in their life and not feel their whole life is about work. And for me, it's just so much like...

Shani Gwin (43:42.927)
My relationship with my son, it was always good and he's my baby and he so he was just born like I think he was two when the pandemic started. And so his life was at home with me and me working like crazy and not being able to be fully present. And then when I had that, I was here. I didn't have any distractions. And the way that our, sorry.

Shani Gwin (44:12.469)
the way that our relationship has just become so amazing. Like, we've always obviously had so much love for each other, but we have a real bond, you know? Like, sometimes I feel like I'm his favorite, which I never felt like before, which isn't the goal, right? But, I just don't know if I would have been able to get there without, you know, such a big, you know, a big push.

And that's all I wanted, like that's what I started the company for and it got lost. And so I have so much time with my little sweeties that I love so much. And just what you're saying resonates with me too because I do get tired of driving them to hockey and everything all the time, right? But I just say, this is such a blip. It's gonna be over before I know it. And I'm just so grateful that I have the opportunity to...

you know, be their mom and that they feel safe with me and that they want me to drive them or they want to, you know, snuggle with me for a few minutes. So I take what I can and I just really, I'm just so grateful for those moments with them. Yeah, they mean so much to me.

Gordon Sheppard (45:23.958)
Thank you. Thank you. you for sharing so many things in there and thank you for becoming, continuing to become, it's not over yet, this person that we can learn from. Because again, a lot of that's the opportunity in reaching out to you is to that chance to learn. This is so rich in terms of thank you for sharing your real lived experience, but also that you've been solutioning this along the way and you're going to continue. I like your 80 year old self still learning the lessons. I think that's pretty cool.

Shani Gwin (45:33.711)
you

Gordon Sheppard (45:51.949)
as you're gonna kind of go forward and how nice with your relationships with your kids and those are so, so important. Again, there's so much there. I always like to end out if we can, if you had a couple sentences to say to a maybe about some of the things that you like to pass along, just sort of briefly, is there something that you'd like to pass along to leaders that are listening in terms of them on their leadership journey that you might want them to know?

Shani Gwin (46:17.903)
I would point them to the teaching around the strawberry and that vulnerability is such a strength and it's a gift. When you're vulnerable with your team, it actually provides them with an opportunity to be vulnerable too. And in those situations, you're looking for a few things to be completely honest and still be accepted. And it gives that person on the other end the opportunity to do that for you.

and also learn or if they're not going to. But it's not something that you can only do once and then not do again. It's something you're gonna do over and over and over again. And it's actually part of the joy of living on this planet is feeling those things and going through those emotions and having that vulnerability because being a leader is, it's been so gate-kept, like what it means to be at the top of a company.

Like what, like for a long time I was going to people and I was really lucky to be mentored by a lot of people to kind of tell me about, know, this is how we run our agency and they've been so supportive of me but there were also a lot of people who did not want to tell me. They were like, I had to figure it out myself and so you got to figure it out. And in my mind I'm like, how do we evolve?

if we can't share and be vulnerable and just try to keep loving. And so I think incorporating vulnerability and love into your leadership is an incredible way to move forward. And you won't regret it, I don't think.

Gordon Sheppard (47:59.36)
You won't regret it. People won't regret hearing your story here today on the podcast. Shawnee, honestly, deeply and thankfully, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for being on the show.

Shani Gwin (48:12.889)
Thank you for having me.